"Mumsnet statement on moderation with regard to..."

[RaveOnThisCrazyFeeling]

@MNHQ, I am wondering if the statement sticky at the top of this section needs a new, more accurate, less misleading title.

A large part of the difficulty that women encounter in discussing these issues comes from the framing of the issue as being about 'trans rights'. This implies that feminists are arguing against the equal rights of trans people, which of course isn't the case at all. It also disregards the fact that women and their rights have any stake in the issues being discussed - it makes it all about trans people having rights, or not having rights, and to the casual, uninformed observer that reinforces the TRA narrative that women are a privileged class denying the rights of oppressed transwomen.

In fact, women are the historically and systemically disadvantaged sex class, and so ha e a very large stake in legal and social understanding of sex and gender.

Might you give some consideration to changing the thread name (and OP as appropriate) to "...discussion of sex and gender" rather than "discussion of trans rights"?

It's always fascinating to me how abusive the language is from people who come hear to tell us how unkind we are, "spew" etc.

How are you doing over there, Janes? I hope you're not too near any of the fires.

And I'm stuck between climate deniers and sex deniers and I've fucking had enough.

It's fucking crazy

Never seen that happen to a woman just out the blue some blokes jump her and beat her up. I've seen too many men get violent with their partners or exes in public.
May I suggest that if you wish to inform people of what you have and have not seen you start a separate thread instead of derailing this one.

Prodigal

I'm in one of the safest places to be today - in a city, with urban firefighters to get on top of any grassfires that start up, and not too close to areas of expected fire spread in Greater Sydney.

And I'm fucking terrified. So god knows how the poor buggers out in the impact zones are feeling. My friend is so scared. She's trying to keep her two adopted twins with special needs calm away from home. She thinks her house will likely go by day's end.

The two things are intolerable to me. Denial of climate change - intolerable. Denial of sex - also intolerable.

I'll tell you, when the planet fucking burns and drowns, alternately, and civil society breaks down, it's women and girls whose sex will put them at the greatest risk.

Janes, bloody hell, how did I miss you were in Oz? Much good thoughts for you, and yes, even if I wasn't boiling in 42 degree heat in such a stressful geographical situation, I'd still be hopping mad at what's going on. You know you have my respect anyway, but I'm really the very last person to be telling anyone off for judicious use of 'fuck' when angry.

Not sure what GailCindy's goal is, apart from telling MNHQ on us:

YetAnotherBeckyMumsnet. I would certainly feel hostility if I were trans. Better keep those guidelines as it is before the real spew starts to unleash

Same old same old. Feminists are also being blamed for another trans death (actually killed by a man, but then we knew that)

www.womenarehuman.com/feminists-blamed-for-deadly-assault-of-trans-identified-man-by-non-binary-trans-ally/?fbclid=IwAR20AfEA74mflcn0fPH_qmZGE3VPJwHsorwpzvvfgqbzcVOCueBWDEuxRF8

And still we come here, to try to remain grounded in the reality of what women and girls face in this shit world, and that statement of moderation hangs over us like a threat.

I honestly don't understand how anyone can look at the current fires in Australia and go "yes, this seems normal, nothing climate change related to see here".

I'd still be hopping mad at what's going on

Denial doesn't work as a long term strategy for anyone. On climate, it gets a country on fire. On sex based rights, it disenfranchises half the population.

But I'm gonna take my fucking anger away from this thread now and try to cool down, in multiple ways.

this seems normal

Same thing some people seem to think when lesbians get told to suck d*ck.

Oh look. The mask has slipped

It makes me so angry, ProdigalKitten and Janes - it makes me furious that the world leaders are just sitting around like everything's fine.

I'm scared too - and I'm about as far from Aus as it's possible to be, but about what this means for the planet, for all of us. Watching the devastation to people and animals on the news is just unbearable, so god knows what it's like for the people in the middle of it. Sending thoughts and prayers, or whatever, to you, Janes

You're obviously comfortable enough to not want to take the steps one can take to change your body or the way you expect people to refer to you (she/her)

I find this horrific - that any women not happy with the gender society imposes on her should mutilate her body rather than seek to change society. Why should we submit to gendered expectations/sex stereotypes? Is this the world you would prefer - where these expectations are fixed and immutable, forced on girls who must submit or be drugged and cut up? Why should those stereotypes and expectations not be changed? Why should women have to fulfill the role TRAs would wish to force on them to fulfill their need to be 'validated'? And why should we happily accept being referred to as 'cis' in order to fulfill this role for them?

It is some dystopia society you are pushing!

GailCindy “... and that is the foundation of my view according to my son...”

I have a girlfriend who quite happily explained recently that they vote however their husband tells them to, because reasons 🤦‍♀️

From just these two examples I would say FWR, and feminism that centres women, is still very much needed.

My cat thinks I should vote for whoever seems the most likely to provide treats.

Jane I fucking love you sister, and I hope you and your loved ones are able to stay safe. It's just horrific.

Next, I shall be consulting the cat as to what the year's best investment opportunities may be. Also I wonder what she thinks of Boris's Brexit deal? I mean, I realize she lacks the testicles of objectivity, but still.

[”You're obviously comfortable enough to not want to take the steps one can take to change your body or the way you expect people to refer to you (she/her)]”

”I find this horrific - that any women not happy with the gender society imposes on her should mutilate her body rather than seek to change society. Why should we submit to gendered expectations/sex stereotypes?”

I absolutely agree with that last comment except I would broaden it. Why should any person who is made to feel uncomfortable in their body and/or appearance because of the stereotypes society has imposed on everyone feel forced to change themselves to fit? And how on earth is doing so seen in some quarters as being progressive?! How is it that in 2020 people feel they cannot freely express who they are as individuals without trying to conform to stereotypes associated with either sex, whether their own or not?

Surely in future we will look back and think “WTAF, people in 2020 actually felt they had to change their bodies to fit social stereotyping!”

It's grim, isn't is? The expectations just keep ratcheting up and resulting in more people being fed into the plastic surgery grinder.

Ah, the testicles of objectivity. Heavy, pendulous, and vulnerable when poked.

Woman is not a product you can buy at the fucking plastic surgery clinic. Liberation politics, my fucking saggy tits.

You're obviously comfortable enough to not want to take the steps one can take to change your body or the way you expect people to refer to you (she/her)

^This comment jumped right out.

It's all a bit Taylor Swift "Look what you made me do".

I think this thread will just get filed in the to do pile at MNHQ like the previous thread “those pesky rules again” or similar title, where someone said they’d look at the concerns, and then nothing seems to eventuate.

And if anyone wants to take issue with my language as 'aggression', fuck off, because half my country is on fire, a friend is in town that she 'hopes' is defendable and it's going to be fucking 42 degrees by midday. And I'm stuck between climate deniers and sex deniers and I've fucking had enough.

Yes. Yes to all of this JanesKettle