"Mumsnet statement on moderation with regard to..."

[RaveOnThisCrazyFeeling]

@MNHQ, I am wondering if the statement sticky at the top of this section needs a new, more accurate, less misleading title.

A large part of the difficulty that women encounter in discussing these issues comes from the framing of the issue as being about 'trans rights'. This implies that feminists are arguing against the equal rights of trans people, which of course isn't the case at all. It also disregards the fact that women and their rights have any stake in the issues being discussed - it makes it all about trans people having rights, or not having rights, and to the casual, uninformed observer that reinforces the TRA narrative that women are a privileged class denying the rights of oppressed transwomen.

In fact, women are the historically and systemically disadvantaged sex class, and so ha e a very large stake in legal and social understanding of sex and gender.

Might you give some consideration to changing the thread name (and OP as appropriate) to "...discussion of sex and gender" rather than "discussion of trans rights"?

theflushedzebra

I think when we chatted on the other thread (prayers/fires) I was just a day behind you on the red hot anger. Sorry if I was snappy.

Thanks OnlytheTit, back at ya.

JanesKettle

Sorry - JanesKettle you have been incredibly tolerant, courteous and restrained, given what you and your children are living through. I can only hope you all come through safely. The madness cannot continue forever.

Agreed!!!!

I haven't been on this thread as wanted to avoid engaging with the very obvious derailing, but I just wanted to point out that this rang bells:

But not trans women. I've seen one beat up by a group of guys in Leicester Square.

Although not quite as described by the poster.
transcrimeuk.com/2018/06/26/leicester-square-assault-suspects/

Sorry if I was snappy

Not at all x

*And I'm think of all of you in Australia today

Cheers theflushedzebra

I’m in South Australia and I’m happy that my family in NSW, and Vic are safe and finally home. I’m still really gutted about Kangaroo Island. Massive loss to us.

I almost regretted ‘bumping’ this thread, cos of what was dislodged but actually I shouldn’t have worried - all grist for the viper mill

Late to any party, and a quiet follower rather than a loud shouter, but changing the MNHQ statement to the words proposed by the OP would make sense to me. Women should be able to discuss their issues freely without having to align their thoughts first and foremost with a system of classification that doesn't centre women and women's rights. Women should also be able to discuss the issues without needing to be defensive, or be attacked by people with opposing views.

Quiet but eloquent, Twisted. Thanks for putting that so well and bringing the thread back around to what we want MNHQ to consider, and why.

OP there must be many more lurkers, like me (de-lurking) who agree with you. Looking forward to seeing what MN decide.

I couldn't agree more.
We are being colonised and silenced.
This is a place for women to discuss women's and feminist issues. And we are facing an assault on our rights.
Trans rights > my rights at present, this should not be the case, they don't sit at the top of the equality tree - MNHQ has no right to centre and prioritise aggressive men and their feelings.

Are you really going to compare the colonisation of African and Asian countries to someone who was born male using the female toilets? 400 years of slavery? Wow.

Colonised is apt, given its definition.

GailCindy are you really suggesting that women and girls who don't want to conform to gendered expectations should take harmful drugs and be given drastic surgery? Wow.

“Ah, the testicles of objectivity. Heavy, pendulous, and vulnerable when poked.“

You hit the nail on the head, Floral. Or the, er ...

There's only one comment about colonising, Africa, India and slavery and that's from GailCindy. The definition offered uses tv and reality programmes.

GailCindy I am an Indian woman. The modern ideology of transgenderism is deeply offensive and insulting to me. I am often reminded of how little I matter in this world as a woman and that the desires and feelings of males, especially white males, always supersedes my rights to privacy and dignity and my feelings of discomfort and fear.

The domination of males, especially white males, in the discourse around women's rights is very apparent. The control and policing of women's language and words in deference to males, is a stark reminder of our lack of power in exerting our self-determination.

Women are viewed as subhuman because our concerns and problems will never be given the level of respect and adulation that is given to males, especially white males.
Not only are our words taken from us, but replaced with dehumanising versions - uterus havers, front holes, the idea that being a woman is all about being 'sexy' and being fucked by men etc.

Funding for women's services and provisions for women in politics, sports and so on are all open to males, especially white males. Our precious resources are theirs for the taking.
Our struggles and injustices are appropriated by males, especially white males, to proclaim that they are more oppressed and vulnerable than any other woman in this world. Being female in a male dominated world is apparently a position of privilege these days.

Women are not allowed to publicly gather and discuss the erosion of our hard won rights. Dissent is swiftly quashed, either through physical intimidation or through harassment and potential job losses.

The movement has all the hallmarks of a colonialist ideology in the sense that it seeks to dominate, exploit and subjugate women for its benefit. The masterstroke is in aggressively pushing the narrative that males, especially white males, are more oppressed than women. The fact that this narrative has spread so quickly and has permeated institutions in such a short span of time is indicative of the power and influence held by males, especially white males. If the world really viewed them as women, they would have been ignored and dismissed just as easily as we are.

Great post, Nonny

Briefly delurking to see if MNHQ have come back, now they've had their thinking time. And ignoring the rather pitiful attempt at undermining the discussion - seriously, haven't you realised yet that we all own bloody dictionaries!

I don't think there'll be a change.

OhGod I think Becky referred to everyone being back “next week” ie w/c 6th, so we won’t get any reply before then.

Fantastic post Nonny.

Just found this and want to say I very much agree with the premise of this thread, thank you for starting it and articulating this, RaveOn.

And yy NonnyMouse. Great post.

It honestly hurts me when I see what’s happening. How vulnerable, voiceless women are being dehumanised, painted as the oppressors in this truly staggering reversal, and marginalised even further than we already were.

It’s hard to grasp just how far and deep misogyny extends in the world we thought we knew, we thought had aspirations to be civilised.

It honestly hurts me when I see what’s happening. How vulnerable, voiceless women are being dehumanised, painted as the oppressors in this truly staggering reversal, and marginalised even further than we already were.

YY

“The fact that this narrative has spread so quickly and has permeated institutions in such a short span of time is indicative of the power and influence held by males, especially white males. If the world really viewed them as women, they would have been ignored and dismissed just as easily as we are.”

Thanks, Nonny. Good point, very clearly made. Trying to debate with TR supporters feels like being suffocated by an octopus.. It’s useful to have clear succinct points like this to hand.