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"Mumsnet statement on moderation with regard to..."

8 replies

RaveOnThisCrazyFeeling · 30/12/2019 17:31

@MNHQ, I am wondering if the statement sticky at the top of this section needs a new, more accurate, less misleading title.

A large part of the difficulty that women encounter in discussing these issues comes from the framing of the issue as being about 'trans rights'. This implies that feminists are arguing against the equal rights of trans people, which of course isn't the case at all. It also disregards the fact that women and their rights have any stake in the issues being discussed - it makes it all about trans people having rights, or not having rights, and to the casual, uninformed observer that reinforces the TRA narrative that women are a privileged class denying the rights of oppressed transwomen.

In fact, women are the historically and systemically disadvantaged sex class, and so ha e a very large stake in legal and social understanding of sex and gender.

Might you give some consideration to changing the thread name (and OP as appropriate) to "...discussion of sex and gender" rather than "discussion of trans rights"?

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MNHQ

YetAnotherBeckyMumsnet · 31/12/2019 10:50

Hello everyone - thanks for your comments. This is something we'll need to discuss when everyone is back in the office this week - we'll get back to you as soon as we can..

MNHQ

JustineMumsnet · 09/01/2020 11:00

Hi all thanks for bearing with us while we give your posts here some thought. We agree it makes some sense to change the title of the moderation statement and we will do so asap but we're not going to be changing the Talk guidelines. Our approach remains that in order to continue to host this important debate which brings considerable cost both in terms of time and lost revenue for Mumsnet we need to keep the discussion around feminism and transgender issues respectful and measured. That's simply the minimum ask and we think our guidelines, whilst I'm sure not perfect, are the best way of ensuring this.

On a side note, I want to reiterate that the moderation team here are extremely dedicated hardworking folks who are doing their very best to be fair-minded in what I think we can all agree is quite tricky territory. I know many of you feel passionately about this issue but please be respectful and refrain from attacks as they are incredibly demoralising and often pretty unfair imho.
Thanks,
Justine

MNHQ

MichaelMumsnet · 09/01/2020 11:17

Hi all, just to be clear - the post wasn't deleted for the mention of Karen White, it was deleted because it broke another talk guideline. We've emailed that poster.

MNHQ

JustineMumsnet · 09/01/2020 11:25

@OnlyTheTitOfTheIceberg

I know many of you feel passionately about this issue but please be respectful and refrain from attacks as they are incredibly demoralising and often pretty unfair imho.

Oh, the irony...

But the Mumsnet mods aren't attacking anyone - so I don't think there is an irony here?

MNHQ

JustineMumsnet · 09/01/2020 11:31

@NotBadConsidering

But it’s self-fulfilling isn’t it? You’ve created extra rules that apply solely to this forum which attracts outsiders reporting the slightest bit of wrongthink so the moderators have to work extra hard to try and see whether the post does break the special rules. I had a post removed on the surgery thread because one word was considers possibly inflammatory. If there weren’t such special rules, the mods wouldn’t be under so much pressure! It’s not US doing the reporting, and generating the work. It’s outside Monitors” who police this forum and know you want to keep things within the special rules that create the extra work. Once again, as with the previous thread, we want to know why you’re determined to create a situation where you* put your moderators at the whim of outside controllers with rules that are as clear as mud?

We aren’t criticising the moderators. We want to know why the moderators are being placed under pressure to decide whether it’s ok or not to call a convicted paedophile rapist “he”, for the sake of

we need to keep the discussion around feminism and transgender issues respectful and measured

There's a reason why this type of discussion isn't permitted on other forums tbh - advertisers are skittish. They don't want to be associated with controversy. We spend a lot of time explaining that it's not a free for all on Mumsnet - we have guidelines and mods who enforce them. We're a website that is funded largely by ads and without those rules I think we'd be putting the site's existence in peril.

MNHQ

JustineMumsnet · 09/01/2020 11:44

@LangCleg

There's a reason why this type of discussion isn't permitted on other forums tbh - advertisers are skittish. They don't want to be associated with controversy. We spend a lot of time explaining that it's not a free for all on Mumsnet - we have guidelines and mods who enforce them. We're a website that is funded largely by ads and without those rules I think we'd be putting the site's existence in peril.

Justine - I think we all understand there are financial fears. At least this is honest. What is not honest is you pretending that the rules are either fair or evenhanded when frustration erupts. Because they're neither fair nor evenhanded. We know it. You know it. The external reporters weaponising the Special Trans Privilege Rules know it.

If you''d just stop pretending otherwise, it might help.

I don't know what you mean by fair exactly. But I do think they are reasonable guidelines that recognise competing rights here. And I'm certainly not pretending anything.

MNHQ

JustineMumsnet · 09/01/2020 12:03

@TheProdigalKittensReturn

Without advertising revenue, no Mumsnet.

And without users, no advertising income. I mean, I appreciate the honesty, but at the same time the users who are the reason advertisers are willing to spend money here in the first place have every right to be angry that the "debate" is being framed in a way that decenters women and insists that women's rights only be discussed if that can be done in a way that makes it clear that they're less important than what trans people would like to happen.

I agree but not all our users feel the same way about this issue and some frankly simply don't want to engage with it and are rather put off. That said, I do think it's important that somewhere as mainstream as Mumsnet allows proper discussion of this issue but I'm pretty certain that had we a different ownership structure (ie if we were private equity or venture backed) it would be shut down.

MNHQ

HebeMumsnet · 10/01/2020 11:15

Morning, everyone. We can see that Lang and others are concerned about the reasons for a deletion earlier in the thread so just wanted to pop in for a chat.

As a general rule, we don't discuss posters' deletions on threads. We just feel it's not fair to do that in public. But we have just emailed Creepster to clarify the reason for those deletions so hopefully any confusion there is cleared up now.

We do try to make clear our reasons for deletion when we mail people but if you're ever not sure or we haven't been clear do feel free to drop us a line and we'll always try to clear up any queries.

Thanks.

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