"Mumsnet statement on moderation with regard to..."

[RaveOnThisCrazyFeeling]

@MNHQ, I am wondering if the statement sticky at the top of this section needs a new, more accurate, less misleading title.

A large part of the difficulty that women encounter in discussing these issues comes from the framing of the issue as being about 'trans rights'. This implies that feminists are arguing against the equal rights of trans people, which of course isn't the case at all. It also disregards the fact that women and their rights have any stake in the issues being discussed - it makes it all about trans people having rights, or not having rights, and to the casual, uninformed observer that reinforces the TRA narrative that women are a privileged class denying the rights of oppressed transwomen.

In fact, women are the historically and systemically disadvantaged sex class, and so ha e a very large stake in legal and social understanding of sex and gender.

Might you give some consideration to changing the thread name (and OP as appropriate) to "...discussion of sex and gender" rather than "discussion of trans rights"?

...so you wouldn't feel offended by someone using a term that means you feel comfortable as your assigned sex.

Except I don't have an 'assigned sex'. I am of the female sex. And no, it isn't always 'comfortable' to be female but that can't be assigned away nor identified out of, it just is.

The next part where you talk about the fact that some or even most trans people might transition because they like things that are typically for the opposite sex...

I didn't say a thing about why some or even most trans people do anything . What post were you reading?

My post was about women. Not trans people. Women.

You're obviously comfortable enough to not want to take the steps one can take to change your body or the way you expect people to refer to you (she/her).

I'm honestly not sure how much more clear this can be made. This is a feminist board. We center women. We do not view women through the lens of what are we in relation to Y, because we're feminists. We are not going to decenter women no matter how much that may confuse or agitate people who are not used to women being centered.

So no, we're not going to accept terms that suggest that women are a sort of side category within the greater group "women". We are the category. It's that simple - no qualification required.

Please note that this is not an invitation to further debate.

Can you not see how an ideology that asserts that personality determines 'gender', which then supercedes sex in determinng what it is to be female or male, is every bit as regressive as the presumption that generarions of feminists have struggled against, that sex determines personality, aptitude, social role?

This rhetorical question basically states that the idea that what you like to do or wear or think determines your gender/sex undermines the feminist movement's achievements in quashing stereotypes about women which infringed their human rights as well as their everyday choices. My son broke it down for me.

I don't see how we automatically become the subset when there is far more of what I don't mind calling cis women than trans women. I fail to see that I have less social privilege than a trans woman in honesty and that is the foundation of my view according to my son and that is why we wont agree. I believe men have more privilege but on a scale depending on other factors like race and ability. But not trans women. I've seen one beat up by a group of guys in Leicester Square. Never seen that happen to a woman just out the blue some blokes jump her and beat her up. I've seen too many men get violent with their partners or exes in public.

GailCindy it might be worth starting a new thread on the reasons why cis is an helpful term that feminists disagree with. It's a useful topic to explore and expand on, but it's going to get lost on this thread which is specifically about the focus of the pinned guidelines in this area of MN.

@Billy21

Oh okay.

Please note that this is not an invitation to further debate.

Guess I didn't make that rock grey enough.

I'm sorry but this is a forum, you cannot silence me purely because you have run out of things to say. IS this how the feminist bit is round here then? Interesting to see @YetAnotherBeckyMumsnet. I would certainly feel hostility if I were trans. Better keep those guidelines as it is before the real spew starts to unleash

@TheProdigalKittensReturn

Anyway, my post wasn't directed at you.

Ask your son - he seems to have all the answers

@PerkyPomPoms

:)

will you react irrationally and become aggressive and assaulting like our Bill above if people call you cis

This is disgusting slander.

I do not 'react irrationally' on this topic - it's carefully considered and involves lived experience - do NOT bring misogynistic tropes about 'irrational women' onto a feminist thread.

I do not 'become aggressive' - this is just playing into anti-feminist tropes around 'angry women'.

And seriously - and consider this as righteous anger, because I've had about enough of the emotional manipulation from you people on this issue - assault ? Absolute slander. The women here are not out and about assaulting trans people. Go and find some MEN to talk to about that.

I'm going to report your post, because the implications are vile.

Tall women are a subset of women. Women of colour are a sunset of women. White women are a subset of women...

Women are not a subset of women. Neither are transwomen: they are a subset of men.

I guess you could argue that transmen are a subset of women.

I see that my post has been deleted because I questioned whether another poster was being genuine when they misrepresented what I said.

Yet their post with the misrepresentation remains.

A reply to my post said:

That is what you are saying here, you are the normal thing and trans people are the abnormal thing.

But I did not say that, nor anything resembling that. I would not and have not referred to people who identify as trans as "abnormal things."

I won't be engaging any further with 'GailCindy' but I won't have my words twisted and not correct the record.

The women here are not out and about assaulting trans people. Go and find some MEN to talk to about that.

This ^^

I'd like to know details of the attack on a transwoman in Leic Square - because I've googled it and all that comes up is the group of 4 transwomen who attacked a man, and knocked him unconscious.

However, awful as it is, men beating up a transwoman is not an issue for a feminism board. Male on male violence is not for feminism to solve. Feminism centres women, and male violence against women.

As the OP, and all of this thread has stated - up until the derail - this board is discussing women's rights, sex and gender.

But that doesn't make me see the people themselves as a bigger risk for sexual assault or violence.

Are you suggesting this is what we have said? I would like to know who said this. Because I am pretty sure it was just you, just there. Men are more violent than women. Transwomen retain their male levels of/potential for violence. NAMALT for crying out loud, but 98% sexual/violent assaults are committed by men.

GailCindy As a number of people have said, the feminists here object to cis as a term with any legitimacy. We are well equipped to explain why when it is used, ask that someone not use it to refer to us, and complain via the general guidelines if that request is repeatedly ignored as it would be harrassment and not in the spirit at that point. If one poster is being abusive to another poster, that is already covered in the general guidelines, so a special set of automatically babbed terms which is arbitrarily enforced anyway, is redundant.

Does that answer your question?

Such a nerve people have coming onto a feminist board and telling women off, and telling lies about the attitudes and behaviours of women here.

Do you know how much time I spend on trans positive, pro-affirmation sites, even though I consider many of the people on them to have done massive harm to my precious kids ?

ZERO. NADA. NOTHING. I don't run around telling them what terrible people they are, and how they have to change how they speak in their own spaces.

No, they are free to attempt as much parental alienation as they like, they are free to slam mothers as fucking T*Rfs who should be hung, shot, raped, they are free to reduce women's rights to fucking nothing.

And because I'm so fucking polite, I let them get on with it. I spend ZERO time harrassing and bullying them in their 'safe spaces'.

Well this is my 'safe space' where women are allowed to come fucking first, and not be threatened with violence and have sh*t talked about them to their GNC kids, and be free of bullying and coerce control around their language and their thoughts.

So fuck 'c*'s' and I mean that sincerely, and fuck 'you nasty old ladies are so mean to the kids' because one of those is fucking nuts and the other is a fucking lie.

If you goal is the safety of transpeople, go find where all the homophobic males hang out, and do some education there. it's not, though, is it, because you're here.

And if anyone wants to take issue with my language as 'aggression', fuck off, because half my country is on fire, a friend is in town that she 'hopes' is defendable and it's going to be fucking 42 degrees by midday. And I'm stuck between climate deniers and sex deniers and I've fucking had enough.