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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

JK Rowling - Thread 2

464 replies

MoleSmokes · 21/12/2019 02:03

Thread 1 started by @MsMcWibble here:
www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3772685-JK-Rowling
----
twitter.com/jk_rowling/status/1207646162813100033

Dress however you please.
Call yourself whatever you like.
Sleep with any consenting adult who’ll have you.
Live your best life in peace and security.
But force women out of their jobs for stating that sex is real?
#IStandWithMaya #ThisIsNotADrill
---
To start off thread 2 - everyone saying the time was right for this to hit the news stands right after the Election was right!

Maya Forstater's Employment Tribunal case is, by virtue of JK Rowling's support, more popular in The Spectator than Boris Johnson by Boris Johnson, The Tories and The Labour Party!

MOST POPULAR in The Spectator

1. In just a few words, JK Rowling has changed the transgender debate (James Kirkup)

  1. Boris Johnson: Perhaps my campaign was ‘clunking’. But sometimes, clunking is what you need (Boris Johnson)
  2. We’ve just had the best decade in human history. Seriously (Matt Ridley)
  3. Keir Starmer looks and sounds middle class precisely because he’s working class (Isabel Hardman)
  4. Let’s make David Lammy Labour’s next leader (Rod Liddle)
  5. A new leader won’t stop the far left’s domination of Labour (Nick Cohen)

www.spectator.co.uk/

JK Rowling - Thread 2
OP posts:
Thread gallery
17
EndoplasmicReticulum · 21/12/2019 18:09

Horse - yes. See also Professor Alice Roberts.

Siameasy · 21/12/2019 18:14

I love Ricky Gervais now even more that I’ve seen he has a gorgeous Siamese cat with white feet

Igneococcus · 21/12/2019 18:17

deckthehalls
Is that the comment in Spiegel bei Enrico Ippolito?

EwwSprouts · 21/12/2019 18:22

The apologising blue ticks seem oblivious that freedom of expression covers speech as well as presentation.

ConfessionsOfTeenageDramaQueen · 21/12/2019 18:23

The crazy thing is, re-reading her tweet again this morning (keep pinching myself to check it's real!), she doesn't even say what she actually thinks - the only possibly anti-trans thing she has said (apart from standing with Maya of course) is "But force women out of their jobs for stating that sex is real?" - she doesn't even provide an answer to it.

All she did is state that "sex is real" and this is the hoo-ha that has emerged. It's actually unreal.

Btw @Waterandlemonjuice I'm also considering writing a letter of support to her agent. If anyone has their contact details can you PM me?

Cookieflavoredbiscuit · 21/12/2019 18:35

All she did is state that "sex is real" and this is the hoo-ha that has emerged. It's actually unreal.

Isn't it though? They're basically saying that -any woman- anyone who is gender critical should be unemployed. Perhaps in the endgame we will at least be permitted to do empowering sex work.

MarieIVanArkleStinks · 21/12/2019 18:37

The 'spectrum' argument is one big red herring, IMO.

Biological sex may well exist on a form of spectrum. I'm not a biological scientist. I don't know. (Although judging by Twitter, I wouldn't put too much faith in those who say they are).

Gender, though, does exist as a social construct and its parameters shift with time. It may be that we have no more power to change historically-specific discourses of gender than we do to alter our basic biology, but as a feminist academic, the constricts/stereotypes of gender are social constructs I've spent most of my adult life challenging. As for the intersex/clownfish arguments, I'm surprised to see those who purport to some form of academic background using these to support their absurd pro-trans arguments. Why is it said that exceptions often prove the rule, rather than vice versa?

What is irrefutable, as borne out by a gigantic law of averages and statistics is that: those born female have smaller bodies than men, are generally weaker than men, have less dense muscle-mass than men, have bodies that can be penetrated by men who weaponize their bodies against ours, have less aggressive testosterone in our bodies, ergo are less aggressive than men, are less likely to commit violent crime than men, and by ratio of 98% to 2% are less likely to commit sexual offences than men.

These are all pretty conclusive facts that no amount of 'spectrumming' can take away. Not least, the human race has managed to procreate for hundreds of thousands of years, without apparent confusion, and haven't died out as yet.

TWAW activists are quite possibly using these arguments because all they amount to is a distraction from the key point. That being the safeguarding of women in certain spaces that don't admit men.

It's interesting that even the sex theorist Jonathan Dollimore is critical of queer theory, and was, as far back as 2001.

MarieIVanArkleStinks · 21/12/2019 18:38

PS. Thank you, Ricky Gervais. And can you imagine the tsuanmi of invective that would have been levelled at any woman who made the same comments?

Waterandlemonjuice · 21/12/2019 18:40

Contact details forJK Rowling:

www.jkrowling.com/enquiries/

“Jo rarely gives interviews or writes articles, preferring to express herself on twitter. If you have a media enquiry, please contact J.K. Rowling’s PR team at [email protected]

So it looks like [email protected] is the one to use unless anyone knows otherwise?

I’m going to email anyway, I think she needs an outpouring of love and support to counteract the vitriol.

ArabellaDoreenFig · 21/12/2019 19:03

I’ve been waiting for this from Ms Rowling, she knows damn well what a woman is - someone who publishers thought couldn’t sell books. Would love to see a republish of HP with her full name on them. I reckon she has just been biding her time to publicly comment.

Joannne Rowling you are a hero!

YourOpinionIsNoted · 21/12/2019 19:39

I've just sent an email. If nothing else it will give the poor sods wading through a load of "you're erasing me!!! Why do you want trans kids to die?? Waaaa!!" something else to read.

BarbaraStrozzi · 21/12/2019 19:45

The "sex is a spectrum" nonsense is irrelevant for two reasons.

  1. it's highly misleading - there's a tiny percentage of people with genuine DSDs against a background of a species that is, like all mammalian species, overwhelmingly sexually dimorphic (though interestingly, in terms of animal species as a whole, not hugely so - which is why different social roles and jobs and so on allotted by sex doesn't actually make much sense).

  2. It's utterly irrelevant to the trans issue. Most trans people (I guess the percentages are in line with the population as a whole) are absolutely standard members of their birth sex, genotypically and phenotypically (as evidenced by the number of late transitioning transwomen who've fathered several children, and transmen having "male" [sic] pregnancies).

Kantastic · 21/12/2019 19:53

I don't know if this is the right thread for it but I am hoping that Maya is OK.

There are so many lies being told about her wherever JKR's Tweet is discussed. She's coming in for a lot of the same vitriol directed at Rowling, without Rowling's shield of stratospheric wealth. I just wanted to send her good wishes if she's lurking here and thank her for bringing the case and indirectly making this happen!

TheProdigalKittensReturn · 21/12/2019 20:05

All she did is state that "sex is real" and this is the hoo-ha that has emerged. It's actually unreal.

Remember that Rowling is a writer. The deliberate understatement will have been crafted in full knowledge that a comical overreaction would ensue. She's pretty clever, Jo is.

HandsOffMyRights · 21/12/2019 20:12

Imagine this studio gathering scenario

Tatchell's mate and genderist Stephen Fry (narrator of Harry Potter audio books)

Emma Watson, Hermione actress - Mermaids 'charity' supporter and gender ideology believer

Ezra Miller, star of Magical creatures, who self IDs as neither male or female Hmm

And the levelled, brilliant JK Rowling, who stands up for women's rights and understands that biogical sex is immutable

Awkward Grin

Womenzwork · 21/12/2019 20:16

I just emailed my thanks. Not sure they'll find amongst all the nonsense she must be receiving but it felt important to acknowledge what she's done.

And I agree, not sure it is the right thread, but Maya, thank you and I hope you're ok Thanks

TheProdigalKittensReturn · 21/12/2019 20:16

I'm loving the posting of the "well Emma believes in gender so there!" memes.

Emma is an actress, love. She didn't write the books and has no ability to overrule Rowling.

ConfessionsOfTeenageDramaQueen · 21/12/2019 20:17

Thanks @Waterandlemonjuice - just speaking from experience hard copy letters are usually taken more seriously by emails and the address for correspondence is also on the link you provided, for those who fancy writing (I will be).

Also, I love that on her website it says she prefers expressing herself on Twitter. What a mic-drop.

@TheProdigalKittensReturn So true - love her.

HandsOffMyRights · 21/12/2019 20:24

Emma is an actress, love. She didn't write the books and has no ability to overrule Rowling.

She also coined the phrase 'self-partnered' 🤮

TheProdigalKittensReturn · 21/12/2019 20:26

Not sure whether to interpret that as "I have an imaginary friend and it's me" or "I wank a lot".

theflushedzebra · 21/12/2019 20:36

More people than I thought have a serious problem distinguishing fantasy from reality, fact from fiction. I guess that's part of the problem.

We've always been fans of Harry Potter in the Zebra household - I've read the books and watched the films multiple times - but I didn't realise just how fanatical some people are about it.... I think Harry Potter world forms part of their identity too - hence the (irrational) feeling of betrayal - and the unleashing of such hatred onto JKR for such a mild tweet.

JanesKettle · 21/12/2019 21:07

It's interesting - apropos of something I was reading a page or so back - the role that American cultural imperialism plays in this debacle.

Oh - it was the Ravelry comment! Americans (generalising, sorry US feminists here, #notall) export their Dem-Repub divides all over the world, into societies where it doesn't make any sense.

In the heads of the tantrumming ex Potter fans, JKR has aligned herself with Trump, and all Trumpian policy. It's not clear to a lot of them that other countries have different political traditions and divides, and that the influence of the materialist Left still lingers on in the UK and AU.

It's incredibly childish behaviour from these fans, which - I suppose one expects from people who haven't neccessarily grown up to make as deep connections with literature for adults. But it's also very politically basic.

The progressive American friends I had are no longer my friends because of my refusal to affirm my dd's gender dysphoria. There is no room for nuance; you are with the trans community, or you are with Trump, and training up your kids to go out and kill trans people. That's the kind of rhetoric you can hear - and from friends!

I wonder, if by Potteresque magic, if we could remove American political and cultural influence from the debate, whether JKR's comment would have been received with far more equanimity, in the UK at least.

Sigh. No magic, I know. But it's one of my pet peeves with leftists and progressives on this topic - they are 'against' American military imperialism, but practically cheerlead cultural imperialism, and it makes them dreadful hypocrites.

JanesKettle · 21/12/2019 21:11

I don't know if this is the right thread for it but I am hoping that Maya is OK

Me too. It's been an object lesson in how fast false news - Maya misgendered a trans workmate repeatedly! - can travel round the world, but it is very painful to be lied about, even on a household scale, so I can't imagine how Maya is dealing with being lied about on a global scale.

I am glad her dad has her back.

shedquarters · 21/12/2019 21:16

but I didn't realise just how fanatical some people are about it.... I think Harry Potter world forms part of their identity too - hence the (irrational) feeling of betrayal - and the unleashing of such hatred onto JKR for such a mild tweet.

Agreed. Have just been looking at twitter. Can't help but feel a little sad for them while at the same time being incredibly angry at the abuse. Many of them seem very young, or just a bit special. The world of Harry Potter is real to them, the characters are like imaginary friends that help them cope with life. Like those support animals Americans take on to planes.

shedquarters · 21/12/2019 21:19

One person on twitter saying that JKR is responsible for the murder of trans people and mass shootings. YIKES