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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

JK Rowling - Thread 2

464 replies

MoleSmokes · 21/12/2019 02:03

Thread 1 started by @MsMcWibble here:
www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3772685-JK-Rowling
----
twitter.com/jk_rowling/status/1207646162813100033

Dress however you please.
Call yourself whatever you like.
Sleep with any consenting adult who’ll have you.
Live your best life in peace and security.
But force women out of their jobs for stating that sex is real?
#IStandWithMaya #ThisIsNotADrill
---
To start off thread 2 - everyone saying the time was right for this to hit the news stands right after the Election was right!

Maya Forstater's Employment Tribunal case is, by virtue of JK Rowling's support, more popular in The Spectator than Boris Johnson by Boris Johnson, The Tories and The Labour Party!

MOST POPULAR in The Spectator

1. In just a few words, JK Rowling has changed the transgender debate (James Kirkup)

  1. Boris Johnson: Perhaps my campaign was ‘clunking’. But sometimes, clunking is what you need (Boris Johnson)
  2. We’ve just had the best decade in human history. Seriously (Matt Ridley)
  3. Keir Starmer looks and sounds middle class precisely because he’s working class (Isabel Hardman)
  4. Let’s make David Lammy Labour’s next leader (Rod Liddle)
  5. A new leader won’t stop the far left’s domination of Labour (Nick Cohen)

www.spectator.co.uk/

JK Rowling - Thread 2
OP posts:
Thread gallery
17
iswhois · 23/12/2019 23:34

What a bunch on twats

Can't have been very big fans to begin with if they didn't know that the stairs turned into a big slide to expel any boys sneaking into girls dormitories

ErrolTheDragon · 23/12/2019 23:36

#ownvoice stuff too - authors can only write characters with their own lived experience, anything else is appropriation

< Dragon disappears in a sad puff of wokery>

ConfessionsOfTeenageDramaQueen · 24/12/2019 00:01

Btw this piece from the Spectator discusses a lot of the YA cultural appropriation stuff and how bonkers it's gotten www.spectator.co.uk/2019/05/writers-blocked-even-fantasy-fiction-is-now-offensive/

Lamahaha · 24/12/2019 06:26

That article is horrifying! But it is portrayed wrongly, and is misleading. The book was to be published by a Penguin-Random House imprint and the author received a 6-figure advance; but the article says "she" withdrew the book. Only the publisher can withdraw the book at that stage, which is incredible if they have paid six figures for it -- the author would get to keep the advance. And again, "she" would now be publishing it in November. Only the publisher can publish, not the author, and only the publisher can make announcements about the book. The article makes it sound as if the poor little author had self-published and couldn't face the backlash, which might be understandable if true.

But it's actually the publisher who did not stick to its guts and go ahead, and they certainly had the clout and the money to do so. It was now THEIR book, not the author's. I find it disgraceful that they withdrew. Another huge company that caved under pressure; not from TRAs this time but from SJWs. Cowards.

Honestly, the only way to get past these babies throwing their toys out of the pram is to ignore them. I'm gutted that the publisher gave in.

Are black novelists allowed to write about white characters and their lives? Asking for a friend.

NightLion · 24/12/2019 08:00

Would someone with a share token please post that Spectator article? Cheers

Tocopherol · 24/12/2019 08:01

Only if it's reinforced that white characters are oppressing everyone else! #ownvoices!!!

Clymene · 24/12/2019 08:30

I don't know if they do share tokens as such but try this:

Read Writers blocked: Even fantasy fiction is now offensive - www.spectator.co.uk/2019/05/writers-blocked-even-fantasy-fiction-is-now-offensive/

DancelikeEmmaGoldman · 24/12/2019 08:44

I’m not sure if this has been posted, there’s not much new information, but I’m vastly indebted to the writer for the wonderful term “wokescolds”. I intend to steal it and use it often.

“If Rowling continues to stand firm against the wokescolds, she may strike a significant blow for freedom of speech.”

Thank you Emily Zanotti.

www.dailywire.com/news/glaad-tried-to-force-jk-rowling-to-apologize-for-transphobic-comments-she-refused?utm_source=facebook&utm_medium=social&utm_campaign=benshapiro

TheProdigalKittensReturn · 24/12/2019 08:45

Can these ridiculous babies not have a single discussion without it turning into a Maoist struggle session? I'm so tired of this shit.

KatvonHostileExtremist · 24/12/2019 08:46

Tocopherol

That screenshot you posted looked like a bastardised version of this:
"Sex is biological and 99.98 percent of humans are either straight up male or female with no ambiguities. It's determined at conception and fertilization, and is observable in every cell, every system, all our hormones, every organ, and in our entire biology. Sex is not assigned, it's observed as a physical, material, and biological fact. Ultimately it's all about the gametes. If you produce sperm you are male. If you produce ova you are female. No human was ever born without the haploid contribution of both male and female gametes.
And as regards intersex, this occurs in about 0.017 percent of humans and every case is a disorder of sexual development of either a male or a female. We have a ton of good data and the DSD categories are well understood genetically. These are the six biological karyotype sex disorders that do not result in immediate death to the fetus:
X – Roughly 1 in 2,000 to 1 in 5,000 people (Turner’s )
XX – Most common form of female
XXY – Roughly 1 in 500 to 1 in 1,000 people (Klinefelter)
XY – Most common form of male
XYY – Roughly 1 out of 1,000 people
XXXY – Roughly 1 in 18,000 to 1 in 50,000 births
"If you are 46, XX, you are female. If you are 45, XO, you are still female, but with Turner syndrome. 47 XXX, 48XXXX and 49XXXXX, aren't a spectrum of femaleness, they are classified as female chromosomal disorders. If you are 46, XY, you are male. If you are 47, XXY, you are male, but with Kleinfelter syndrome. If you are 48, XXYY, you are male, but with XXYY syndrome. 48,XXXY, 49,XXXXY. All are still male. These aren't on a spectrum - they are categorized as male genetic disorders. They aren't considered intersex conditions, but a lot of trans activists like to claim they are.
If someone had trisonomy 21, we don't say they are on a human spectrum of any sort, we classify them as having Down syndrome.
Intersex conditions by themselves can exist in a spectrum, but only in relation to the severity of that specific condition. But even over that spectrum they have clearly defined categories. Androgen insensitivity syndrome is someone who is genetically male, but their reproductive organs don't masculinize. It has 3 categories of severity.
There is no spectrum gradient between male and male with androgen insensitivity syndrome. These are clearly defined categories. There is no spectrum gradient between female and androgen insensitivity syndrome. You are either in the category female or category male with androgen insensitivity syndrome. There is no spectrum gradient between having an intersex condition and not.
If you have all the typical indicators of your sex, you are that sex, you are in that category. If you are born with the number and type of sex chromosomes off from your external genitalia, with unmatching or mixed type of gonads, with ambiguous internal reproductive anatomy; and/or ambiguous external genitalia, then you are in the intersex category. There is NO spectrum gradient or overlap between being typical male and having an intersex condition.
Bottom line: Intersex is a specific set of individual genetic disorders of sexual development - not a third sex or a collection of different sexes.
Gender on the other hand is a set of trivial characteristics associated with the performance of masculine or feminine behaviors. These are entirely cultural constructs and are widely varied culture to culture.
Bottom line is there are two sexes, three orientations, and 7.6 billion genders."

I actually cried the first time I saw them bring PCOS into this. And i can well imagine the pain of people with disorders of sexual development. How DARE they appropriate people's conditions. Makes me so angry.

PCOS brings a whole lot of pain for women, and there's some utter shit on Penis News saying it gives us a biological advantage in sport, so therefore men can compete against women. Lol. Yeah, it's down right insulting and incorrect on so many levels.

There are two biological sexes. It's all about the gametes. Also. Get lost.

KatvonHostileExtremist · 24/12/2019 08:48

Get lost TRAs obviously!

TheProdigalKittensReturn · 24/12/2019 08:56

The "nice show you have there, would be a shame if something were to happen to it" behaviour from GLAAD described in the article about them attempting to bully Rowling into recanting into recanting is particularly interesting. That's not social justice, mate, that's a protection racket.

Tocopherol · 24/12/2019 09:00

Yeah, I have seen that particular piece of info copy/pasted in varying states of completeness all over Twitter lately. Never with credit, citation, nope. Posted as if they wrote it. Disappointingly, several science accounts I follow have done the same thing! None work in the field, so are no more qualified to confirm or deny it than I am, but I can't comment with my real Twitter and if I use my anonymous one it will be ignored anyway. Science Twitter is a good thing overall but I've noticed the vast majority don't really like being questioned, or challenged, no matter how good the question is. I've had 2 relatively popular accounts 'splain my own work to me.

BarbaraStrozzi · 24/12/2019 09:01

I've got PCOS too, Kat. The first time I realised TRAs were appropriating it for their political ends, it mostly made me Confused then Angry. Largely my reaction was "these people are batshit crazy - this is clearly a medical conditio a woman has solely in virtue of having a female reproductive system."

One of my larger foothills, in fact arguably a subsidiary summit on my continuing ascent.

TheProdigalKittensReturn · 24/12/2019 09:04

Do we need to break it down for them? You can't have polycystic ovary syndrome if you don't have ovaries, and if you have ovaries then you are female.

Would glove puppets help?

Tocopherol · 24/12/2019 09:28

What I've gathered is this:

It's simplistic and bioessentialist to try to fit humans into just 2 narrowly defined physical sex categories. Very exclusionary and transphobic and colonial. Doesn't tell us anything about which humans have which needs!

Whereas actually, numerous human sexes can be sorted using sets of narrowly defined physical markers. This is inclusive and very useful and tells us which humans need a gynecologist and which do not. Down with the binary!

Am I following?

TheProdigalKittensReturn · 24/12/2019 09:31

The "colonial" thing drives me up the wall. No, TRAs, people outside of Europe did not need Europeans to explain to them that humans come in two sexes and you need one of each to make a baby. To nobody's surprise except yours they'd figured that out all by themselves before your ancestors ever arrived on their shores.

Tocopherol · 24/12/2019 09:37

A woke friend on Facebook constantly brings up two-spirit people, hijra and ladyboys as evidence non-european cultures recognise a 3rd 'sex'* .I don't know anything about Native American cultures but it strikes me as odd that they like to use India and Thailand to support this idea of 2 sexes being repressive because modern Thailand and India are largely conservative, patriarchal countries with strictly defined gender roles Hmm

BarbaraStrozzi · 24/12/2019 09:47

Yup, Tocopherol. I have an anthropologist friend wh points out that as a general rule (not always - she's very careful to discuss counterexamples) third genders arise mostly in societies with very strictly demarcated and very strictly enforced gender roles (in the old fashioned social sciences sense of gender as culturally and socially constructed roles, behaviours and dress codes deemed appropriate for one sex or the other). Third genders seem to occur as a safety valve in societies where sex stereotypes (and externally enforced homophobia) would otherwise keep things so tightly constrained you'd get an explosion.

Justhadathought · 24/12/2019 09:59

Third genders seem to occur as a safety valve in societies where sex stereotypes (and externally enforced homophobia) would otherwise keep things so tightly constrained you'd get an explosion

Yes, as outlets for more feminised male behaviour....'Ladyboys' often end up in prostitution too.

I have a gay male friend who lives in Cambodia - and is in fact one of the lynchpins of the growing gay scene there. Homosexuality has only just started to come out of the shadows in Cambodia, but gay men are still expected to marry women, and they do. Drag is a huge thing.

Tocopherol · 24/12/2019 10:45

Ladyboys and hijra are exclusively male too Hmm

iswhois · 24/12/2019 10:51

I too got a response from Jk Rowlings office thanking me for support

Email address is [email protected]

BarbaraStrozzi · 24/12/2019 10:52

There are female "third genders" out there - Bacha Posh in Afghanistan, Sworn Virgins in Albania. But again, they exist to prop up patriarchy.

Bacha posh, for e.g., allow families with only female children to carry out basic tasks like having a child who can be sent to the market to buy vegetables in a society where women and girls aren't allowed outside the house without a female chaperone. And they have the massive shock of having to revert to "womanly" roles after puberty.

Sworn Virgins (now largely dying out) were allowed to role-play as men, but (as the name suggests) had to forego any sexual or romantic relationships as the price they paid for more freedom, again against the backdrop of an immensely repressive society.

HorseWithNoHumbuggery · 24/12/2019 10:56

Ladyboys. Whatever.

"Ooh! I went to that Thailand and the bars there were full of gentleman-girls.."

Said nobody ever.

It's always a bloody man thing isn't it?

BarbaraStrozzi · 24/12/2019 11:15

Yes, Horse. It's less well known, but in addition to Bacha Posh (girls being passed off as boys within the family), Afghanistan has a tradition of Bacha Bazhi (boys being dressed as girls then trafficked into sex slavery). But in both cases, the group benefiting is men.

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