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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

I’m so confused by my opinion on the transgender debate

276 replies

OkayOkay1 · 29/11/2019 20:16

I have never, ever known a trans person in real life. I thought I had my opinions on the whole issue until this season of I’m a Celebrity. I know it sounds silly, but listening to Caitlyn’s plight has made me question everything.

My views have always been that sex should be determined at birth and cannot be changed but that gender is something that people can choose if they so wish.

That way, sporting events should be categorised by sex, regardless of what gender you may identify as.

I also sympathised with the fact that women who have been subjected to abuse from males would hugely benefit from toilets etc being strictly female only. Although I could see an argument for trans women using women’s toilets at a point where they have fully transitioned surgically.

But I listen to Caitlyn Jenner and what she has been through and she has my utmost respect for being brave enough to go through all that she has. Being in the public eye, the transition process must have been even more daunting. She has lost family over this. I feel for her so much and think that I would love her to be fully treated as a woman. She has fought so hard to get to the place she is now. Wouldn’t it be so humiliating to have to join in with the males in sporting events that are segregated by sex? Or use male changing facilities etc.

I don’t know what the answer is but I am really confused. 😔

OP posts:
Butterisbest · 29/11/2019 21:47

My mistake there. 2015 not 2005

JanesKettle · 29/11/2019 21:50

For my sanity - is this just the next tactic ? Like, it didn't work to come here and ask why we hated all the trans, and we didn't respond correctly to the poor butch cousin asked to show her vulva ? Is this just todays's attempt at getting our dried up old hag empathy working ?

Because if it is, picking fucking Jenner as the empathy subject is just dumb.

There are some trans people I feel empathy for (not enough to over-ride the empathy I feel for women and girls) but not bloody Jenner. What's so hard about Jenner's life ?

OkayOkay1 · 29/11/2019 21:50

Op, did you ever wonder why young girls would have a camera in their wardrobe?
Don't you think that it's a bit strange?

Kendall set up the camera because Kylie had been stealing her clothes so she wanted proof!

OP posts:
JanesKettle · 29/11/2019 21:51

I'm going to get a deletion if I continue to say what I think about posters coming on here trying to solicit women's empathy for Jenner. Is it worth the deletion ? Haven't decided yet.

TinselAngel · 29/11/2019 21:52

Can someone share with me an article (from a reputable source) that states Caitlyn Jenner masturbated in her daughters underwear?

No. Really don't, all.

Gertrudesgarden · 29/11/2019 21:52

Who is going to tell Katie Piper that she's brave and stunning? Oh wait...she's "just" a woman. Nah, the fact her face was melted by acid, she was blinded, she's had countless operations and all because her ex couldn't take the rejection, yet we're expected to sob and weep cos some privileged twonk decided to make their own life "harder"......'koff.

LangCleg · 29/11/2019 21:53

Why does the precise nature of Jenner's alleged intrusion into Jenner's daughter's underwear (or clothes, or wardrobe via camera, or or or) make a difference to whether or not women should have rights to which XY persons are not entitled?

Is there a sliding scale you're applying?

MIdgebabe · 29/11/2019 21:53

If people are exaggerating, why? There is no need. You don't need to paint every transperson as the deepest evil to prove that women are not transwomen.

JanesKettle · 29/11/2019 21:56

This reply has been deleted

Message deleted by MNHQ. Here's a link to our Talk Guidelines.

tabulahrasa · 29/11/2019 21:57

I watch all the kardashians... Caitlyn hasn’t lost any family members because of transitioning - it’s a reaction to how Caitlyn has treated people.

I don’t watch I’m a celeb tbh, but my DP does, so I caught Caitlyn saying - I don’t know what Khloes problem is just after talking about transitioning and having been in Khloe’s life since she was 5, so I’m assuming the allusion was that Khloe has an issue with the transition... khloe has been very vocal about the fact she has an issue with how Caitlyn has treated Kris and the stuff that’s been written about kris that they all insist is untrue...

JanesKettle · 29/11/2019 21:58
  • ignorant posters not the 99% of women who post here, either frequently or infrequently, or even lurk.
Lowhum · 29/11/2019 21:59

Jenner is seasoned in reality tv. They know what to say and when to say it.

Backinthecloset123 · 29/11/2019 21:59

Wouldn’t it be so humiliating to have to join in with the males in sporting events that are segregated by sex?

Well quite. You are talking about the womens feelings, yes?

You are a very rare breed OP. Usually it's previously sympathetic people who become cynical, you're the first I've seen it work the opposite way.
*Has a think.

PerrysWinkle · 29/11/2019 21:59

Janes 👏🏼👏🏼

OkayOkay1 · 29/11/2019 21:59

Can I just say, I have never posted on this part of mumsnet before. I posted on here because my understanding was that you were women who were very passionate and also knowledgable about this debate. I posted here because I valued your opinions. I didn’t choose to empathise with Caitlyn’s situation, it just happened and I knew I needed to balance those feelings with facts about the repercussions of trans women being treated as though they were biologically women.

Some replies have been really helpful and have reminded me of why it’s important to protect women’s rights in this way.

Some of the other replies have been so hate fuelled and unkind.

I’m sorry I’m not the most knowledgable about this topic. I’m sorry I thought it would be a good idea to question my feelings. What saddens me is, why did you feel you couldn’t just educate me rather than biting my nose off? Surely the more people who have their eyes opened to the full picture the better for women’s rights?

I am grateful for the helpful replies but this is certainly not a part of mumsnet that I will ever feel comfortable opening up to or posting in again 😔

OP posts:
MIdgebabe · 29/11/2019 21:59

The question isn't about critising Jenner et al, the question was initially ( rephrasing ) given what I have seen so far of transgender people on the telly, how might that affect my thoughts around transgender and women's rights . Bashing people isn't a good look . It just makes people look bitchy

TinselAngel · 29/11/2019 22:00

JanesKettle, I think I love you. Grin

Gertrudesgarden · 29/11/2019 22:00

JanesKettle......that was epic x

JudeLawswhore · 29/11/2019 22:02

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

Gertrudesgarden · 29/11/2019 22:02

OP....educate yourself by reading the very very very useful posts

Break it down for me
The transwidows threads

Don't sit back and ask others to do your thinking for you. That's just lazy.

TinselAngel · 29/11/2019 22:02

I didn’t choose to empathise with Caitlyn’s situation, it just happened

Hmm
TowelNumber42 · 29/11/2019 22:03

Like you say, maybe a 3rd space is the only way to progress with this.

Wouldn't it be better progress if other males helped make Jenner feel comfortable in the men's changing room?

TinselAngel · 29/11/2019 22:04

Like you say, maybe a 3rd space is the only way to progress with this.

I for one, didn't say that, and don't think it.

MIdgebabe · 29/11/2019 22:07

I don't mind if the solution is that men accept transwomen or we have third spaces, as long as they ( the ones who genuinly seem to have a real problem ) get a solution that doesn't screw women over

LangCleg · 29/11/2019 22:07

I fucking love you, JanesKettle.