I’m so confused by my opinion on the transgender debate

[OkayOkay1]

I have never, ever known a trans person in real life. I thought I had my opinions on the whole issue until this season of I’m a Celebrity. I know it sounds silly, but listening to Caitlyn’s plight has made me question everything.

My views have always been that sex should be determined at birth and cannot be changed but that gender is something that people can choose if they so wish.

That way, sporting events should be categorised by sex, regardless of what gender you may identify as.

I also sympathised with the fact that women who have been subjected to abuse from males would hugely benefit from toilets etc being strictly female only. Although I could see an argument for trans women using women’s toilets at a point where they have fully transitioned surgically.

But I listen to Caitlyn Jenner and what she has been through and she has my utmost respect for being brave enough to go through all that she has. Being in the public eye, the transition process must have been even more daunting. She has lost family over this. I feel for her so much and think that I would love her to be fully treated as a woman. She has fought so hard to get to the place she is now. Wouldn’t it be so humiliating to have to join in with the males in sporting events that are segregated by sex? Or use male changing facilities etc.

I don’t know what the answer is but I am really confused. 😔

I've had radical feminist lesbians bite my fucking head off for not understanding the nature of their mother-hate (long history of mothers seeking to force compulsory heterosexuality on lesbian daughters) and while it was uncomfortable, and I spend about a week feeling defensive, I learned so much from their ability to stand up and be angry with me. They made me a better feminist. Not someone pattting me on the head and saying 'oh those nasty rad fems'. They were nasty - so what ? They got the point across.

PREACH!

Tinsel did this for me on the topic of transwidows - although much more kindly than she should have. I am forever grateful. And would have been if she'd torn me off a strip. I'd have deserved it.

Was Jenner always secretly convinced Jenner was female, or was Jenner a cross dresser who got caught out

A recent interview with Jenner reveals that they were never uncomfortable in male roles and sporting a male persona, at all.....but did harbour a cross dressing fetish. Jenner, like Eddie Izzard is one of those men for whom the recent transgender trend has provided a possibility to explore this tendency even further.

No one on earth would argue that foot fetishism is a civil right.

It is not OK to ask women on a feminist board to tolerate and celebrate male fetish behaviour.

It's not OK. I find it traumatising and troubling, and frankly, it makes me want to throw up.

It's just women-hatred, repackaged. All this social concern from the left about safe spaces - what about my right, as a woman, to have a discussion/support space free from being required to support men and their fetishes*

Please note Mumsnet mods - not all people suffering from gender dysphoria are exhibiting fetishistic behaviours. Many people suffering from GD are suffering enormously. As a society we need to help people suffering from GD by finding the very best and safest treatments for their pain. I do not suggest all transpeople have a fetish. And yes, I do resent that in the middle of MY pain and MY anger and MY life experience, I have to take time to make this explicit to you as mods so you hopefully don't delete MY voice. Jenner is at no risk from me and has social, legal and cultural power immensely more than mine. The power differential is entirely the other way to the way it risks being moderated in this instance.

Yikes. This ain’t it.

C Jenner has joked about stealing clothes from the young Kardashian women (step daughters at the time) to wear them.

The Kardashian sisters accused each other and only discovered it was Jenner after installing a hidden camera.

Jenner has also said “the hardest thing about being a woman is deciding what to wear...” doesn’t sound like oppression to me.

Threads on here are getting weirder and weirder.

Just chiming in to see if Uncle George and hir angry relatives have shown up to shout at us yet.

I’m a very empathetic person (which has been to my detriment many times in my life) so I know I have a tendency to feel so saddened by the feelings that others have had to experience that I can’t always see the bigger picture. I’m not trying to upset/annoy anyone on here. I just want to understand things a little better

I am too ( empathetic)......but I also know it is important not to over -generalise or make laws based on individual examples or people or friends that you empathise with. Besides, Caitlyn is not a delicate flower.....and knows full well their true situation.

For my sanity - is this just the next tactic ? Like, it didn't work to come here and ask why we hated all the trans, and we didn't respond correctly to the poor butch cousin asked to show her vulva ? Is this just todays's attempt at getting our dried up old hag empathy working ?

I think some people genuinely think that individuals who have had all the plastic surgery are some kind of a gotcha. See the latest prisoner thread for another example of this.

I'm trying not to imagine catching my dad trying on my underwear. Pretty sure my response would have been OMFG, my dad is a fetishist. I don't think it would have been 'oh well, as long as he didn't ejaculate', or 'shit, maybe my dad is a woman!' But that would have been the 1980s, before the discovery of the clownfish spectrum.

I repeat: Jenner maintains membership in a male-only golf club.

This means Jenner uses male loos and male changing rooms.

Jenner has NO problem being “treated as a male” when Jenner chooses that.

The transpeople I feel incredibly sorry for are Jazz Jennings and Susie Green's offspring.

To deliberately deprive a young person of their libido and cause ongoing health problems in an initially healthy body is beyond cruel.

Just to let you all know. I am now going to hide this thread and won’t be reading any more of the comments.

I am happy to educate myself thanks. In all honesty, I didn’t realise there was so much to be educated on when it comes to this topic until I posted here. I am fairly young and like I said, I have absolutely no first hand experience of this topic. I have empathy for anyone who goes through struggles in their lives so when Caitlyn expressed some of hers, I did empathise and I’m not going to apologise for that.

Don’t worry, I won’t be back on the Feminist board. I will research and I will form my own opinions on these issues from now on. There is a nice way to speak to people, even when you disagree with everything they are saying. I thought you would maybe welcome someone who was interested to hear a feminist viewpoint but I see that’s not really the case.

I wish you all well.

Tinsel did this for me on the topic of transwidows - although much more kindly than she should have. I am forever grateful. And would have been if she'd torn me off a strip. I'd have deserved it.

Absolutely.

And frankly, I cannot bear it that another woman brings an AGP for our sympathy into one of the only spaces transwidows have. I can't bear it. I cannot tolerate it. All of society is celebrating their ex-spouses and their ex-spouses' fetishes. Can they not have one place on the world wide internet to be free from being asked to empathise again ?

Does anyone think that on any trans forum anywhere, there's a TRA posting 'oh wow, I don't know why but I am feeling a lot of empathy for the trans-widows, they are so brave. It cannot be easy' and then the trans posters agreeing that trans widows have it very hard, and we should feel for them ?

Not in a million years.

She has an easy going and likeable personality

Didn’t seem particularly likeable and easy going in that clip talking to her ex Kris. Where was the empathy there?

Then you presumably missed everything we said about previous visitors who have been ‘interested to hear our viewpoints’?

Tinsel did this for me on the topic of transwidows - although much more kindly than she should have. I am forever grateful. And would have been if she'd torn me off a strip. I'd have deserved it.

Tearing strips off isn't my way, Lang 😘

But FFS if anybody here has read the trans widows' threads, CJ is absolutely the type of person that many of the trans widows either used to be married to, or are still married to because they are too worn down to be able to find an escape route.

Didn’t seem particularly likeable and easy going in that clip talking to her ex Kris. Where was the empathy there?

Jenner came across terribly in that clip.

Jenner has NO problem being “treated as a male” when Jenner chooses that

That is true! Recent interviews reveal that Caitlyn Jenner is fully aware of the nature of their 'situation'.

Oh god, OP, you can't listen, can you.

Demands that women be nice or I will mute you. Very feminist.

Have fun using your empathy on all the poor males out there. Come back when you realise it won't get you anywhere. We women will be waiting to support you then.

Brava, Jane’sKettle and to you and your family.

I find myself thinking about distinctive careful writing styles. Would love to get an algorithm on some examples but have has too much wine this evening.

I thought you would maybe welcome someone who was interested to hear a feminist viewpoint but I see that’s not really the case

The thing is we're all different, and some are more spiky than others......there is no one single vibe. It is a conversation. It can be tough sometimes.

Hmmm.... interesting, Towel

OP you can hide the thread, and probably already have, but you can't hide from what's going to be in your changing rooms, hospital wards, public toilets, lingerie fittings and swimming pools in a matter of moments. You say you're young, so I assume that means you may have a family already, or one to come. If you care, at all, about the privacy and dignity of any daughters you may have, do some bloody thinking without the fogging of empathy. You don't need to stand on a rooftop and scream "I am a feminist" but you do owe it to yourself and the rest of the female population to educate yourself on the less savoury aspects of the TRA movement. It's horrible, it's disturbing and you will never, ever look at a man the same way again. The only alternative is to concede without a fight.

Janes

Hope things are going okay (all things considered)

I know what you mean, I wanted to post about the woman prisoner in Canada who was raped (PIV) by another prisoner ... but unless you constantly add all the caveats (natwalt, etc) you risk deletion.

Being more worried about the men than the women, isn't a feminist viewpoint.