I’m so confused by my opinion on the transgender debate

[OkayOkay1]

I have never, ever known a trans person in real life. I thought I had my opinions on the whole issue until this season of I’m a Celebrity. I know it sounds silly, but listening to Caitlyn’s plight has made me question everything.

My views have always been that sex should be determined at birth and cannot be changed but that gender is something that people can choose if they so wish.

That way, sporting events should be categorised by sex, regardless of what gender you may identify as.

I also sympathised with the fact that women who have been subjected to abuse from males would hugely benefit from toilets etc being strictly female only. Although I could see an argument for trans women using women’s toilets at a point where they have fully transitioned surgically.

But I listen to Caitlyn Jenner and what she has been through and she has my utmost respect for being brave enough to go through all that she has. Being in the public eye, the transition process must have been even more daunting. She has lost family over this. I feel for her so much and think that I would love her to be fully treated as a woman. She has fought so hard to get to the place she is now. Wouldn’t it be so humiliating to have to join in with the males in sporting events that are segregated by sex? Or use male changing facilities etc.

I don’t know what the answer is but I am really confused. 😔

What saddens me is, why did you feel you couldn’t just educate me rather than biting my nose off?

Because there are numerous threads you could have just read. Do the work yourself. Educate yourself. Put the legwork in yourself. Don't sit there at the end of your keyboard/phone expecting women to do it for you.

“ I didn’t choose to empathise with Caitlyn’s situation, it just happened”

Hmm, except Caitlyn knows full well how to work reality tv and tells a version of things that makes it much much easier to feel empathy than what the rest of the family say.

Didn't choose, yeah, yeah.

From a feminist perspective, when a male bats his eyes and says 'oh, my life so hard', and you respond with warm feelings of empathy, take a step back and critically evaluate your response though a feminist lens.

This means examining your female socialisation, that has trained you to feel sorry for fucking men. Jenner does not need our empathy. You are being misled by your empathy. You are misdirecting your empathy.

I'm going to wade in with a view I'm amazed doesn't get explored often enough in these debates. It seems to me there are three distinct types being treated as one. The first is the tiny percentage of people who were born into the wrong body and have all their lives felt trapped in the wrong casing. The second is the far larger number of teens who have MH issues, confusion about sexual preference and body dysmorphia, and who are worryingly being encouraged to come out as trans by adults who are not engaging their brains or emotional morals to protect and support vulnerable adolescents. The third, who get a disproportionate amount of attention, are narcissistic, psychotic, predatory and mysogynistic males who feel the need and believe they have the right to invade all female spaces because they can't stand women to have any rights or privacy, space or voice. These men are abusing the trans movement in a terrifying way. They are the bearded crims who chuck on a dress and demand access to female prison or the men who insist on competing against women in sport or who aggressively scream down anyone who doesn;t want a willy in a female environment.

What I don't understand is why the trans movement rally in support of these abusive, manipulative, self-seeking men instead of recognising how damaging they are. The more trans male to females behave like caricatures of male entitlement, not listening, lacking empathy, shouting women down, threatening women etc, the less women feel any affinity or obligation to include them. Which is where we seem to be deadlocked. If the movement weren't dominated by a few narcissistic bullies, I think the issues would have been amicably resolved ages ago.

You can be Gender Critical and like a transwoman.

Remember that while Caitlin may have lost family, her family lost Bruce and that must be extremely difficult for them. I believe that Khloe is angry at Caitlin for being critical about her mother in his book. Otherwise I think she would be "polite " in the same way that her sisters are for the sake of her mum and half-sisters. I can't criticise Khloe for doing this if this is true. I can't imagine how difficult it is to have your stepdad transition and your parent's bitter divorce played out publicly not to mention being asked about it constantly and having to bite your tongue.

While Caitlin has it easier than most women, I can only imagine the nerves leading up to the magazine cover photo of her being released to the world. I know that trans people get a hard time (go to reddit/4chan and there will be plenty of references to trans people as "it" etc) While this isn't as bad as rape threats, it's still bullying and nasty behaviour and I've used a tame example. Caitlin's life would be easier as Bruce at the end of the day.

I struggle with Caitlyn as they are so masculine bar the long hair and boobs. I’m pretty sure if I was in there I would trip by self up using Male pronouns.

Yep, I would, too, that's usually how one is perceived when they have a penis, testicles and XY chromosomes.

OMG educate yourself, OP or whomever is complaining about not being educated!

Do you think every feminist on this board had a lovely, kind, empathetic mentor or group of mentors, to take her by the hand and lead her, step by slow step, through issues concerning feminism ?

No.
Most of us came to feminism the hard way, through our own experience of what it means to be female in this world, and through actively searching for answers - in books, in videos, in talks, in history.

It's WORK. Hard work. And if we are very lucky, along the way we find like-mined women with whom to share that work.

But nobody decided it was their job to help me get there. I had to decide that, for myself. I had to use my brain and do my own work to educate myself. When it came to the trans issue, I had to go and find the research and work out what it said, and find out what feminists before me had written, and reason out my position.

Seriously, though, even at my most clueless, I would never have brought Jenner, like a dead mouse, and laid it at the feet of a bunc h of women and said 'but I feel sorry for him'.

I might have brought dead mouse Jenner to their feet and said 'I am having trouble over-coming my female socialisation to be kind and care in this particular instance. Anyone got any ideas about how to challenge this internalised bullshit?'

instead of recognising how damaging they are.

Yes, can we now turn to discussing the damage someone like Jenner (if we must discuss him at all) has caused women and girls, including those in his own family, by normalising what appears to be AGP ?

It's unusual to go from understanding the impact on women's lives to but a rich man on telly might feel sad so now I am confused about women's rights

Usually confused women haven't thought about the issues at all other than feeling a general sense of let's be nice, especially to troubled men, but when they start thinking about the impact on women and girls, especially the vulnerable ones, they go Shit, yes, we can't go along with TWAW Once you notice the effect on women, a sad entitled man doesn't elicit the same empathy.

I've been lurking for a couple of years, reading everything that's posted here, all the sources, and trying to find a middle ground where everyone gets what they want and everyone is happy.

Doesn't even happen in fairy tales, alas. So why is 50% of the population got to shut the fuck up and "get over it" so a teeny tiny number of people get what they want? Could it be because the 50% that are being fucked over are female? Why is that okay?

That wardrobe should have led to fucking Narnia.

Crikey, not another one

this. like buses at the moment innit?

I didn’t choose to empathise with Caitlyn’s situation, it just happened

Oh get a bloody grip.

You're seriously saying that a C list celebrity begging for votes on a crappy TV show incited your female socialisation to such an extent that you came onto a feminist board to tell them that women's rights were as nothing compared to said millionaire's dreadful suffering - and you're surprised you got your arse handed to you?

Did Jenner talk on the show, OP, about Jenner’s continued membership in and use of a male-only golf club, the kind of club frequented by Hollywood and Beverly Hills movers-and-shakers, a place where women are forbidden entry and where high-value deals are made.

Only male privilege allows someone to take a nice perfumed bath in someone else’s oppression, even receive awards for enduring it! and then step out of that water when it’s financially advantageous.

It's genuinely interesting that they chose Caitlyn Jenner as the sympathy object.

Even TRAs seem to understand that elderly AGPs aren't a particularly sympathetic bunch - we've seen some transactivists let down their guard in discussing how helpful it is to have "trans kids" as the face of their movement.

I'm completely fascinated to learn what exactly it is about Caitlyn Jenner that OP finds so sympathetic.

And OP, I am normally extremely polite. But I have had it up to here with apologists for the homophobic, sexist ideology that is gender, and for people like Jenner who advertise it.

Maybe you could spare a little of the empathy you can't help but feel for a man like Jenner, for a mother like me, who has been dealing with the devastation of ROGD in two of my kids for the last three years, instead of taking refuge in your hurt feelings that someone did not tolerate your male-directed compassion.

Oh, and if you think feminist spaces are all just hugs and women validating each other, that's another thing to go educate yourself on. Women are not care machines; we are fully formed human being who - yes - sometimes are incandescent with anger, and sometimes will robustly challenge other women.

I've had radical feminist lesbians bite my fucking head off for not understanding the nature of their mother-hate (long history of mothers seeking to force compulsory heterosexuality on lesbian daughters) and while it was uncomfortable, and I spend about a week feeling defensive, I learned so much from their ability to stand up and be angry with me. They made me a better feminist. Not someone pattting me on the head and saying 'oh those nasty rad fems'. They were nasty - so what ? They got the point across.

But I listen to Caitlyn Jenner and what she has been through and she has my utmost respect for being brave enough to go through all that she has

Yes, Caitlyn Jenner has a story - just like all of us - but a story with publicity - unlike most of us. That is not to down-play Jenner's experiences - but any number of women/people who post on here could share their own stories and people might well react with equal measures of admiration & sympathy. We all have our own unique story and struggles in life.

Caitlyn Jenner is very realistic about their condition and situation, from what I can gather from watching an interview. Kind of knows they are not a woman - but 'identifies' as one - after a life time of transvestitism. Also Caitlyn's children refer to Caitlyn as 'Dad ' - because that is what Caitlyn is. Their father.

Caitlyn retains the physique and the biology of a man - and it would simply be unfair for Caitlyn or people in a similar condition to compete in women's sports.

Men need to get with the times, and be as accepting of other males in whatever clothing choices they make.

Absolutely, they do.
And transwomen should be encouraging them to do it.

I would love her to be fully treated as a woman

As for this, I'm not even sure what this means? From my observations of Celebrity Get Me Out of Here, people have been polite and respectful regarding pronouns - but it is clear that nobody views Caitlyn as a woman. This is based on instinctive responses - based on physical, and other, clues.

So why is 50% of the population got to shut the fuck up and "get over it" so a teeny tiny number of people get what they want? Could it be because the 50% that are being fucked over are female? Why is that okay?

I love when lurkers delurk to make straight to the point comments :)

Fully treated as a woman

What do you have in mind just ignored or do you mean Raped?

Wouldn’t it be so humiliating to have to join in with the males in sporting events that are segregated by sex? Or use male changing facilities etc

No! I don't think so. Caitlyn is a very tough cookie indeed - and is fully aware of their 'reality'. I think Caitlyn wouldn't bat an eye-lid. Caitlyn knows that nobody really sees them as a female in the true sense of the word.

What saddens me is, why did you feel you couldn’t just educate me rather than biting my nose off?

Since you’re new to this board, you won’t know just how many wide-eyed, faux-confused posters we get ‘just trying to understand why Mumsnet doesn’t like trans people’.

I think we’re averaging about one a week. The last one, having failed to make us see the error of our ways, finally exploded in a spectacular fashion with a misogynist rant culminating in a shout of ‘Long live the penis!’

Hopefully that explains why we’re all feeling a bit jaded.