I’m so confused by my opinion on the transgender debate

[OkayOkay1]

I have never, ever known a trans person in real life. I thought I had my opinions on the whole issue until this season of I’m a Celebrity. I know it sounds silly, but listening to Caitlyn’s plight has made me question everything.

My views have always been that sex should be determined at birth and cannot be changed but that gender is something that people can choose if they so wish.

That way, sporting events should be categorised by sex, regardless of what gender you may identify as.

I also sympathised with the fact that women who have been subjected to abuse from males would hugely benefit from toilets etc being strictly female only. Although I could see an argument for trans women using women’s toilets at a point where they have fully transitioned surgically.

But I listen to Caitlyn Jenner and what she has been through and she has my utmost respect for being brave enough to go through all that she has. Being in the public eye, the transition process must have been even more daunting. She has lost family over this. I feel for her so much and think that I would love her to be fully treated as a woman. She has fought so hard to get to the place she is now. Wouldn’t it be so humiliating to have to join in with the males in sporting events that are segregated by sex? Or use male changing facilities etc.

I don’t know what the answer is but I am really confused. 😔

It would be odd for her to go into the men’s changing room at the gym.

Would it though? Back when women couldn't wear trousers, the women who did suffered terrible abuse for daring to 'dress like men' - still they did it, and now it's normal. Now no-one would bat an eyelid at a short haired, be-trousered woman in the ladies changing room. Men need to get with the times, and be as accepting of other males in whatever clothing choices they make.

It shouldn't be odd to see a male with long hair, in a skirt and blouse going into the men's changing room, any more than it is for a woman with short hair in trousers and shirt in the ladies.

It is always tragic when rich famous white TV star sports people don't get exactly what they want when they want. They just aren't used to it so it hurts them more than ordinary people, especially women, POC and the poor who are all used to it. Won't anyone think of the pain the elite feel?

Human beings cannot change sex, it's not possible.
I'd rather be rude than be a liar

I think a lot of people feel like op.

I’m just not sure what the suffering consists of, to be honest.

This is a really good point. I’ve sometimes thought about the narrative you hear that children should transition early because the outcomes are better.

Caitlyn has had an amazing career, Olympic winner, made millions, has lots of children, still a tv star, looks reasonably attractive, dating someone. In what way exactly would Caitlyn’s outcomes have been better if she had transitioned younger?

I have an analogy in my head involving a multibillionaire who feels that their true authentic self is a homeless person and who dresses and acts the part, and then takes up a place in a homeless shelter. But I feel like I wouldn't be allowed to post it.

I have an analogy in my head involving a multibillionaire who feels that their true authentic self is a homeless person and who dresses and acts the part, and then takes up a place in a homeless shelter. But I feel like I wouldn't be allowed to post it.

Isn't that just Bob Geldof?

OP, if you're on the level, it's me who is a bit confused.

Of all the testimonials of trans people, including young lesbians hoodwinked into the cult, young boys in conservative Christian families in the US who simply liked dolls and frills but their families were too freaked out by it so have set them on a path to sterilization and possibly experimental surgery, it's Jenner's that has set your heartstrings pinging?

I think most of the women here are coming from a position of empathy and compassion. Some of us are acerbic in expression, but don't mistake that for uncaring.

But of all the tales in the Trans universe, for Jenner to be the one that sets your firm decision to stand up for women all wobbly, well, I just don't understand how you got there.

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

A multimillionaire eking out a sob story while shilling for votes on a downmarket reality TV show is enough to put your saint-like levels of empathy into such overdrive that you think women's rights should be entirely abandoned and women on a feminist board must be be subject to your immediate pleas to obey their female socialisation?

Good one.

Not. But points for trying. Goddess loves a trier.

Isn't that just Bob Geldof?

I don't feel much sympathy for Jenner, to be honest. It feels like a second bite at the cherry, copying glamorous family members to escape life as a mediocre middle aged man.

And I don't understand why someone would choose deliberately to position themselves to be unacceptable in their own category.

People who choose to dress and have medical treatment that takes them outside the sex class where they belong have to accept there are consequences for that. It certainly isn't a magic invitation into another class they have never belonged to.

I have more sympathy for the none multi millionaires who can't pay for all the feminising surgery, and who don't have the whole western world telling them they're brave and stunning.

At the end of the day, you can be whatever gender you want, double heart penguin, none wizzy woo, whatever - but you are the sex you are biologically, and you can never change that. No one, no one has any place entering the spaces that are segregated off for the opposite sex. Regardless of how brave and stunning you are, whether you pass or not or whether you're really upset about it.

Wanking off into your daughters knickers

Gross

I can’t even get my head round why a person would do that

Fucking gross

Oh what a shame, I used the last of my empathy on my cat this evening. Soz.

Can someone share with me an article (from a reputable source) that states Caitlyn Jenner masturbated in her daughters underwear?

I have googled and my understanding is that she said that she had been caught dressing as a woman by her daughters as they had a camera in their wardrobe and she had gone in and tried on some of their items of clothing on.

Jenner has the money and social connections to do wtf Jenner wants.

Not feeling sorry here.

To all the posters who have taken the time to write helpful replies, thank you. You have put things in perspective for me. I think I wanted a solution that took everyone’s feelings into account but I don’t think that will ever be possible on this issue. Like you say, maybe a 3rd space is the only way to progress with this.

To be honest, Dad trying on my clothing, wank or no wank, would fuck with my head so badly that I'd spend the rest of my life wishing brain bleaching was a reality.

Crikey, not another one.

Agree. Wearing daughters clothes =grim

If you are really interested in balancing trans and women's rights for the greater good, I would avoid going and look8mg for specific bad things that specific transwomen have done, because there are good and bad people everywhere , and that can distract from the real issues ( eg ensuring all peoples needs are catered for) and can lead to a distorted view of the world ( although my previous point about propensity to sexual violence remain )

Unless you are suggesting that people are making things up , in which case. I prefer plain speaking

"Dad" (as Caitlyn then was to them) going in your room and trying on your underwear has to score pretty high on the "creepy and dysfunctional" and totally fucked up" scale though.

Op, did you ever wonder why young girls would have a camera in their wardrobe?
Don't you think that it's a bit strange?
I don't think that Jenner is brave or stunning. It shocked the hell out of me when, in 2005 Jenner won Woman of the year.

You know who I admire ? The women and girls who manage to get themselves away from an abuser and into a refuge.

Sadly, because people like you feel for people like Jenner, who does not in the slightest manner need your feels, those girls and women are no longer guaranteed a single sex space in which to recover from their abuse.

Nobody seems moved by their plight. Just like the women in prison, a huge % of whom have brain injuries (and where do you think they acquired those injuries ? Hmm) and who are now expected to be imprisoned with males - often violent, misoygnistic males. Nobody seems to care about those women.

Give me a break. Coming onto FWR and talking about your empathy for a rich American dude.

She’s 70. I don’t think she will be competing in any Olympics any time soon so maybe her specific experience shouldn’t guide how you see the sports issue.

Can’t have been easy but it’s hardly the biggest sob story in the world. And I always liked her as Bruce too. She has an easy going and likeable personality and is very very used to cameras and presenting herself in a particular way. Not to say she’s not a nice person but she’s a professional.

Did he try on their underwear? I can’t see any evidence of that on the internet. It seems he told the story of being caught on camera trying on some of their clothes and the story has grown arms and legs.

I do agree that it’s pretty awful to be trying any of their clothes on but I just don’t think it’s fair to turn trying on their clothes, to masturbating in their underwear.