The Guardian... Blind Date 23 November

[Backinthecloset123]

I post this aware that I might get a warning.

However!

www.theguardian.com/lifeandstyle/2019/nov/23/blind-date-jen-anna-glasses-fog-up

The woman, a lesbian, Anna (and the Guardian readership) did not reveal that Jen is a trans woman.

The whole thing is gaslighting.
And I may be deleted for that sentence.
There is a good thread on Twitter which I'll link.

It’s not about her - it’s about the guardian merrily going ahead a with the whole TWAW mentality as if it was gospel.

Yes - I think we need to stop talking about Anna altogether.

LordProf nobody knows what the Guardian procedure is or was either. We have one email saying that they didn’t know Jen was trans but why are we taking that as conclusive proof that they trick people? Who knows?
As for them pushing the TWAW line, yes, they do. They have done for a while and if you were GC, you probably wouldn’t pick them to facilitate a date. Even if the person was the sex you had requested, from what I have seen of their date write-ups, they would be highly likely to be an insufferable prat.

In this Guardian piece about the Blind Date column, it’s clear that when they take the photos in advance, the matchmaker spends time having a chat with the prospective dater, finding out more about what they are looking for. Reading that, it seems incomprehensible that they would not have become aware that Jen was a transwoman
before the date. The Guardian then needed to ask any prospective blind date whether they were open to meeting a transwoman.
They also clearly need better procedures for dealing with the whole issue.

www.theguardian.com/lifeandstyle/2019/aug/31/10-years-of-blind-date-weddings-babies-lost-knickers

There's an interesting chicken or egg question there. Is everyone who applies to the Guardian's Blind Date thingy insufferable, or do they write whatever the participants submit to them up in a way that makes them come across like that. Because Reality is correct, any time I've seen one I've ended up thinking I wouldn't want to spend a 2 minute lift ride with any of the people involved.

Key bits from that article. “Precision of a heart surgeon...”

Reading that, it seems incomprehensible that they would not have become aware that Jen was a transwoman before the date. The Guardian then needed to ask any prospective blind date whether they were open to meeting a transwoman.

Agreed..unless, in Anna's own application, she had identified herself as "trans-inclusive lesbian" or "pansexual" or any other descriptor which would have made it clear to whoever was doing the matching that a date with a transwoman would be fine with her. And that's the bit we simply don't know (and are never likely to in light of how Anna has reacted on social media), so we cannot assume that The Guardian was out of line in not flagging up to Anna beforehand that the date would be with a TW, nor can we automatically assume that they would match anyone who simply described themselves as "lesbian" without any trans-related qualifier in the future with a TW. If they did, they would be absolutely wrong and lacking in duty of care - but we can't say with any certainty that was or would be the case.

I know that "lesbian" means "woman attracted to other women" and I absolutely agree that definitions which have served us perfectly well for decades - centuries in the case of the word "woman" - shouldn't be arbitrarily changed, but whether or not TG did anything wrong hinges on how Anna described herself to them, and we don't know that it wasn't "lesbian with some qualifier to indicate that transwomen were okay by her".

OnlyTheTitOfTheIceberg, If Anna had described herself to The Guardian in terms which would have indicated that a TW would be acceptable to her, then I am sure The Guardian would have worded their reply to the concerned reader differently. They could have done this without breaking privacy.

I think their reply smacks of being on the back foot and as they say: it's complex and “something we will be giving further consideration”.

They were negligent and must be feeling very lucky that Anna was OK with the situation.

I agree with a PP, I don’t want particularly want to be mentioning the blind daters by name, but this is an important precedent by The Guardian, and I don’t know how else to discuss it clearly?
A previous date which was between two lesbians went viral as it was so lovely. If you put yourself in a national newspaper as a blind dater then you must expect to be discussed? Although not of course subject to abuse.

It depends what you mean by "dating". If it includes sex (See, I'm of an older generation: this is not a given for me. I often dated without sex.), and you enjoyed that sex, and continued to be attracted to transmen, then you would not be straight, you'd be bisexual.

I think what sometimes happens though, is people are sometimes attracted to certain individuals who are not normally in the group that they are interested in. And it's enough for people to say to themselves, well, sure, I would be ok with that more generally. They are thinking that if they are attracted to one transwoman, who maybe passes rather well, not being attracted to others is just like not being attracted to any individual. Especially if the attraction is more abstract, someone on tv say.

It might be more the case with trans men, too, because many of them if they have transitioned for long can really pass totally, at least with clothes on. If you are getting al the visual signals that say "man" then the sexual attraction part of your brain may not care about much else.

nor can we automatically assume that they would match anyone who simply described themselves as "lesbian" without any trans-related qualifier in the future with a TW. If they did, they would be absolutely wrong and lacking in duty of care - but we can't say with any certainty that was or would be the case.

I think as long as they were clear about their policy, it would be fine. Dumb, but fine. People who realise it is dumb can avoid asking them to set up a date.

Sally Hines has weighed in very eloquently as per usual.

Wow who is that aimed at? Late night tweeting again, I see

I agree with a PP, I don't want particularly want to be mentioning the blind daters by name, but this is an important precedent by The Guardian, and I don't know how else to discuss it clearly

It would, right from the start, have been easy for the Guardian to clarify their position without mentioning individuals.

All they had to do was say 'we always ensure prospective daters are free to decline all trans identifying individuals, and we make clear that trans identifying individuals can only use our service if they are honest about their sex as determined at conception and observed at birth.'

As the vast majority of the population, including trans people themselves, do not wish to date trans people, ever, this would remove any possibility of putting people in difficult situations.

Lining up Jan with another trans woman lesbian would have been interesting. Except I assume thatJan is one of those stubborn trans exclusive lesbians.

(AKA as ‘phobes perhaps?)

What a credit to Leeds University Sally Hines is

Her dad wrote books you know...

What does Sally Hines mean by 'fuck pig'?

Leeds has got rid and she is now gracing Sheffield. Just what you’d want from a new staff member. I don’t know what is meant my fuck pig either but who knows her state of mind when she wrote it.

She didn’t inherit her dad’s talent for writing, that’s for sure.

Good to see Hines bringing her usual academic gravitas to the situation.

Maybe "fuck pig" is a typo, and we're so bonkers she intended to type "fucking" twice?

Bloody hell. Between this and Aviva I'm honestly wondering today what has happened in the places these people work, is this a city thing? Because every work place I've been in would be horrified and grabbing for disciplinary policies at high speed to try and prevent their reputation and integrity being shattered and/or trying to prevent potential legal cases against them.

I'm very grateful for it, as it reassures me that the real world is run by grown ups and standards of acceptable behaviour, professionality, customer service, that kind of thing, and that this idiocy really is limited to the very young and not properly supervised, and the completely out of touch. Society isn't changing; it's just another buzzphrase from a few who have reached a point of Ground Control to Major Tom.

Oh yes, I see it was posted at 7 past midnight so probably a typo and she was too drunk to notice.

Maybe "fuck pig" is a typo, and we're so bonkers she intended to type "fucking" twice?

That was my assumption.

She doesn’t seem well. Has she got no one in her life that cares enough to hide her keyboard?