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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Shall we start a feminist think tank?

212 replies

Newuser123123 · 15/11/2019 11:58

There's lots of clever, knowledgeable women on here. Perhaps we could have a space for gathering research, ideas and policy proposals?

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Newuser123123 · 19/11/2019 09:04

@bertrand I'm sorry in that case, just thought it would be a good starting point. If you'd like to suggest/ start working on other ideas I'd be open to that. I'm not an expert at all, so I'll be guided by others. Just want to make the initial tasks manageable. This idea is so fluid at the moment, there are no set parameters so please don't feel depressed!

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NonnyMouse1337 · 20/11/2019 12:08

I haven't read through all the posts in this thread, so I apologise if I am repeating what has already been mentioned by someone else or if a think-tank 'plan' is already under way...

Based on issues highlighted in the thread about the judicial review for Harry the Owl, and this might be wishful thinking, but it would be nice to look into the possibility of including sex as a protected category for hate incidents and hate crimes so that women are also able to avail some sort of protection and recourse to justice. I think this is currently not included?

Newuser123123 · 20/11/2019 12:45

Good idea. I think I will start new thread(s) so we can work out a more detailed plan

Thanks

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Inebriati · 20/11/2019 15:15

I would really like a place online where we can store and share information, knowledge and contacts.

Daughterofmabel · 20/11/2019 15:27

I would really like a place online where we can store and share information, knowledge and contacts

same.
including sex as a protected category for hate incidents and hate crimes
me too but there has already been a consulation on this last year I think. Scotland though ?

jamrollyolly · 22/11/2019 18:36

I thought, after the positive court cases so far this week, I'd bump this thread for a positive weekend vibe...

ChattyLion · 22/11/2019 22:50

I like that idea of ‘realism’ or feminism being ‘reality-based’ or ‘reality-centred’.

It puts genderism into its rightful context of being a chosen belief system involving magical thinking. Which just like any other belief system or religion, nobody else should be compelled to follow, if they live in a free country.

XXMansplainShieldActive · 22/11/2019 22:58

It moves the spotlight back to women too which is where feminism should be.

Newuser123123 · 23/11/2019 09:19

Have just started a new thread for anyone ready to get cracking!

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xxyzz · 24/11/2019 09:45

I also like the idea of relabelling as Real Feminism or Realists (or maybe Biological Feminists ???) because the problems of labelling the movement as Gender Critical Feminism are:

A) that to most of the millions of average people we want to reach outside this debate, gender just = a polite word for sex, so they have literally no idea what "gender critical" would mean - also, it has the word "critical" in it, so it just makes us sound inherently negative and mean - saying someone is "critical" is not a positive word in real life. Unfortunately, the commonly-used alternative, Radical Feminists, is just as bad, as "radical" suggests a bunch of extremist loons.

B) By calling the movement Gender Critical we effectively centre gender in our very founding statement. You don't draw attention AWAY from gender and TOWARDS sex as the main cause of women's oppression by centring something you don't believe in in your movement's name.

Fundamentally, I think we are behind the curve in terms of public framing of the debate - TRAs have had a decade to plan this and implement it discreetly before most of us noticed, and have very successfully managed to frame the debate as T as a part of the LBGT+ and thereby paint any women (or men) who object as anti-LGBT, or "transphobic".

The most effective way to campaign IMHO is not to continue to fight on their turf (no pun intended) but to reframe the debate in terms of misogyny and safeguarding, which together with homophobia are what I see as the key issues we are fighting against.

Silencing of free speech on this ie No Debate is one of the main mechanisms the TRAs have used, together with regulatory capture; longer term, the bit I find most insidious and frightening is the attempt to play the long game by altering education ie ensuring that the next generation of voters are literally unable to understand the distinction between sex and gender or the meaning of misogyny based on biological sex, as they have been brainwashed from primary school onwards. So I think fighting back against that is crucial in winning the long term war as well as the short term battles. As Mums we are particularly well-suited to battling against that and a group centred around a parenting website would carry both a moral clout and a meaningful voice in an area where our views matter, in a way we might not have in other areas of the debate. So I think that's one area we should focus on.

Fundamentally, though, I think we need to be campaigning on misogyny and the massive attack on women's rights - and we need to be doing it with very simple, pithy and completely clear statements.

The whole campaign around eg Woman is an Adult Human Female is utterly mystifying to anyone not already familiar with the debate - if you're not aware of how far the world has fallen down the rabbit hole, then it just seems blatantly obvious and a frankly insane thing to be debating. I get that in legal terms it is of course key, and defining what is meant by a woman is of course vital in winning legal cases. But in terms of winning over the majority of the public and awakening people to the dangers for women and girls at this critical juncture, we need to be pointing out very clearly and as simply as possible how women's rights are being rolled back drastically. Because to those who don't follow the debate, they have absolutely no idea that that is what is happening. They assume that the slow but gradual progress in women's rights since the 60s is continuing.

We need to get the message out and fast - possibly in a (more effective) Led By Donkeys type campaign - simple messages, widely disseminated.

xxyzz · 24/11/2019 09:53

Tl;dr - we need to be on the attack against misogyny, not on the defence against accusations of transphobia - as time spent on the latter takes away from the key issue.

We need to stop letting ourselves be derailed and the debate being framed in their terms

HorseWithNoFucksToGive · 24/11/2019 10:46

Excellent posts.

ChattyLion · 24/11/2019 11:09

I agree with you that part of being effective is in framing both women’s activism and the issues we want to tackle with plain language. ‘Pro-women’, then? Goes with the Anti-women Activist label I have seen on here, which is a very fair description.

Newuser123123 · 24/11/2019 11:13

Yes excellent @xxyzz

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xxyzz · 24/11/2019 11:13

Or thinking further, we need to stop a) conceding ground within feminism and b) setting up a battleground between feminists.

I'm not a GC feminist or a radical feminist, I'm a feminist. Anyone who claims to be a feminist but isn't GC is not actually a feminist.

Why have we effectively split the movement and conceded that there is more than way to be feminist?

How can we expect future generations of girls to understand what feminism is if we effectively offer them a pick-and-mix of different varieties of so-called "feminism", some of which centre men?

We are feminists, not a particular flavour of feminism. In the same way that we are women, not 'cis' women.

In reality, self-defining as gender critical feminists is not dissimilar to being identified as 'cis' women - both suggest there are other, equally valid ways of being feminists and/or women.

And I don't think there are. We shouldn't need a separate sub-label. The label is used to attack and weaken us as a group - divide and rule. It draws attention to the divisions among feminism and not what we share.

T* as a term of abuse has worked successfully as an attack precisely because to the uninitiated, Trans Exclusionary and Gender Critical do sound like very similar things. If you don't get that gender is imposed on us and think of it as innate, particularly given the confusion in most people's minds over gender and sex, then being "critical" of gender does sound like we oppose people we see as being of a "different gender".

xxyzz · 24/11/2019 11:14

The TRAs are years ahead of us in short, pithy slogans eg TWAW - we have a lot of catching up to do, and fast.

I think our biggest advantages are a) reality. Because we're right and their views are batshit. and b) the power of the image. We may not have slogans as good as theirs but our pictures are way better. Pictures of Karen S, of sports teams/podiums with vastly bigger transwomen competitors in female competitions etc show at a glance how barking and misogynist the whole thing is.

Maybe we need a poster campaign/memes of key images?

And a collection of like-minded celebs to pass ideas to? Ricky Gervais, for example, has massive reach.

Newuser123123 · 24/11/2019 11:15

@ChattyLion good idea, thanks for your posts on the other thread too, very helpful x

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xxyzz · 24/11/2019 11:29

Yes, definitely pro-women.

Couldn't agree more.

They need to be on the defensive as being anti-women. Because, fundamentally, that is what this is about.

xxyzz · 24/11/2019 11:32

And also agree re reframing them as AWAs, because that is what they are. Calling them TRAs is to continue to frame the debate on their terms.

As true transwomen and transsexuals know, the debate has been hijacked by outsiders with zero concern for or respect for their views - this is really about attacking women's rights, not about improving the position for transpeople.

XXMansplainShieldActive · 24/11/2019 22:18

Body positive

XXMansplainShieldActive · 24/11/2019 22:19

Pro resilience

XXMansplainShieldActive · 24/11/2019 22:45

Knowledge is power

Educate by debate

Debate to educate

Pro debate

Womanface

Sex matters

A woman's place...

A man's place (is in the men's)

XX SEX XY

Pro LGB

Anyway I am sure you lot can come up with better catchphrases than me any day but I agree a list would help. There needs to be a phrase about sexual preference (not being a choice) because it matters that the L gain some support. Let's do our own language development as well as reclaiming ...

Jux · 24/11/2019 23:39

I would like to be involved but I have no skills to offer, so just a supporter on the side holding a placard.

Newuser123123 · 25/11/2019 06:23

@jux not true, but welcome on board!

@xxs great ideas about reframing language, I'm definitely in favour of keeping it simple, Women, and Feminist still seem to fit the job nicely!

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Lowhum · 25/11/2019 06:34

First post to this thread here.

If the meaning of woman has already been obscured, then using the term ‘pro-woman’ could get complicated. It also could indicate animosity towards the opposite.

I don’t know if this has already been suggested, but what about ‘sex- centred feminism’ or ‘sex-focussed feminism’?

Sorry for butting in here, I don’t want to offend anyone if I am suggesting the wrong thing.