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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Shall we start a feminist think tank?

212 replies

Newuser123123 · 15/11/2019 11:58

There's lots of clever, knowledgeable women on here. Perhaps we could have a space for gathering research, ideas and policy proposals?

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jamrollyolly · 16/11/2019 09:41

I'm in! Thank you for starting something so positive that we can work towards, as there are so many politically homeless women on here.

PerkingFaintly · 16/11/2019 09:56

It's going to be like that scene in Borgen where they invite loads of people in, cover dozens of flipcharts, and then start shooing people out to whittle it down to something achievable and focussed.Smile

NoCurrentConvictions · 16/11/2019 09:57

Would a Trello board help to organise the work?
I’ve not actually used it before but heard it’s really useful for this sort of project, the demo looks good and it seems to be free....

help.trello.com/article/899-getting-started-video-demo

artisanparsnips · 16/11/2019 10:33

I'm an ex media researcher/producer who has also done social media and communications in politics at a local level. I also write things, so good at churning out reports.

I will look at Trello - we have used Slack before which was also free and I had a love/hate relationship with.

Some things I think we would need to think about:

  • contacting a range of interesting women (eg. GC lawyers and writers as well as 'famous' people to be involved and give it some heft. For all I know they may be on here already
  • working out a funding source. There will be one, or we crowdfund an initial stage in order to access further funding

What else?

artisanparsnips · 16/11/2019 10:35

we can combine trello and slack for task management and comms, fine Smile

Skade · 16/11/2019 10:39

I am politically homeless nowadays, and would love to be involved. I'm a counsellor and so have a lot of opinions on so-called conversion therapy and the BACPs views on treating adolescents with gender dysphoria, as well as being active on Twitter around other sex-based rights issues.

Newuser123123 · 16/11/2019 10:47

Great ideas re trello and slack. My husband uses both for work so he can help too.

I will contact the other groups mentioned above to sound them out and make sure we're filling a gap.

As a first piece of legislation we could look at the GRA?

Disclaimer I am not an expert so please bear with me if I say something stupid!

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XXCoffeeHoneyBread · 16/11/2019 11:11

You have my axe.

Another highly effective Scottish group is murrayblackburnmackenzie.org/ and there is wgscotland.org.uk/.

And don't forget www.transgendertrend.com/.

I think it is good to have each group working on one specific policy or item to keep focus and manage aggressive kick back.

I am concerned about scientifically misleading and inaccurate media making it's way to children via books/tv/lesson plans/policy etc. I think schools, programmers and publishers have a responsibility to ensure safe passage through adolescence. "Wrong body" is a dangerous fib.

Most urgent though is the total absence of a political party who recognises the rights of women and girls and is not actively working to crush our necks beneath their boot.

FinallyHere · 16/11/2019 11:19

Putting my hand up: I too work in Tech, very happy to support the efforts.

Newuser123123 · 16/11/2019 11:33

Feels like that bit in Handmaid's tale where June picks out people who will be useful for the resistance!

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Ali1cedowntherabbithole · 16/11/2019 11:43

MN just swallowed my post.

I’m imagining a think tank as a Network for discussion and ideas, a repository for evidence & research, and a powerful lobbying force.

I think it might be helpful to agree a short list of clear and simple statements to use in conversations and online discussions, so that for example, if we are commenting under a newspaper article we are emphasising and repeating key messages.

We need the public to be clear that transwomen are biological males, that transwomen commit crime at the same rate as other biological males and that most transwomen still have intact male genitalia.

Newuser123123 · 16/11/2019 11:48

I agree some key statements would be good. We need to make sure our research is impeccable and our messages are calm and rational.
We want to make sure we cannot be dismissed as hysterical, bigoted etc.
We need to persuade people to listen to us, and agree with us without fear of losing their jobs.

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MuthaFunka61 · 16/11/2019 11:50

I'm in.

Another qualified and experienced counsellor (@Skade,hi)
and have worked with young people and safeguarding along with relationships and was a local Equalities Officer for a grass roots org.

Newuser123123 · 16/11/2019 11:53

Fantastic mix of skills, and anyone saying they don't have skills, that's not true, your experience is invaluable.

Anyone a legal bod?

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Ali1cedowntherabbithole · 16/11/2019 12:00

We need to make sure our research is impeccable and our messages are calm and rational.
We want to make sure we cannot be dismissed as hysterical, bigoted etc.
We need to persuade people to listen to us, and agree with us without fear of losing their jobs.

Wholeheartedly agree, we are the rational grown ups persuading people to look and listen and get on board with us.

ChattyLion · 16/11/2019 12:10

I’m in

NeurotrashWarrior · 16/11/2019 12:35

there are a lot of things going on behind scenes in many of the orgs already mentioned, including lobbying etc. What's possibly lacking is research, though many academics associated with the orgs are doing this themselves.

It would be important to establish what a think tank would be aiming to do that supports all these organisations and potentially taps into what's already happening.

The Maya Forstater case will be pivotal. So much of what is being done is having to be kept out of public eyes due to people potentially loosing their jobs or simply being silenced at work. I think a think tank named in her honour would be brilliant!

BertrandRussell · 16/11/2019 12:41

I’m in too. My only concern is the dominance of the trans debate. I know it’s incredibly important, but I worry that it’s making us take our eyes off the ball in other areas. We have to multi task!

GetbusywiththeFizzee · 16/11/2019 12:55

Re research, I work part time and happy to help GC academics with the boring nitty gritty part of research ( that the trans lobby have funded ). Part of the work could be providing academics with a network willing to help out with research- questionnaires, focus groups etc.

PerkingFaintly · 16/11/2019 13:07

I agree, Bertrand.

I'd particularly like to ditch the sound-bite "we can't work on women's issues if we don't know what a woman is."

I mean, as someone who loves empirical methods, the removal of the ability to meaningfully count people/groups cuts me to the quick. I'll cheer when sanity is restored.

But as a mantra I see the above being very effective in completely preventing work on other issues pretty much indefinitely.

It's been pointed out before that people don't need a definition of a woman when they're oppressing us (porn, rape, removal of maternity protections, etc). They're not going to sit around waiting for us to tick off "defining a woman".

We can't afford NOT to multi-task.

ElfrideSwancourt · 16/11/2019 13:07

I'd love to be involved. I work in education with children in care so safeguarding is a huge area for me.

I do have a lot of free time and am excellent at proofreading and editing.

Newuser123123 · 16/11/2019 13:16

Excellent points about not being a single issue group. Socially responsible policies and women's rights seem a reasonable remit?

It may be the best use of our time is as a research group for the already established groups, I just think the 'politically homeless' feeling has come up a lot recently.

As ever, impressed but not surprised at the intelligent, measured input from people on here

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WickedGoodDoge · 16/11/2019 13:37

I’m in. I have background in PR and project management. I stopped working a while back so one thing I do have is plenty time. Grin

stealthsquirrelnutkin · 16/11/2019 14:49

Women make up more than half the voting public. We've been protesting about the unfairness of our lack of representation in the upper echelons of decision making for 60 years. Yet we are still being dismissed and ignored.

There was a period when some laws changed and we began to see progress. Those of us who were young in the 1970s thought it inevitable that a gradual rebalancing was taking place, as the old guard retired more women would become politicians, high court judges, law lords and take their seats on the boards of governing bodies, until a natural ratio of 51% women and 49% men shared power at the top, and the female perspective would be given equal importance whenever decisions were made.

Then came the backlash. Feminism was frumpy and old fashioned. Trendy young women aspired to become glamour models, and Women’s Studies departments were taken over by Gender studies and Queer theory. Prostitution was empowering, so disapproving of legalising brothels and pimps meant you hated prostitutes. Disapproving of porn meant you were were a sex hating prude. Black was white, the struggle for sex equality had been won, and women were now going too far with their ridiculous attempts to control the world.

Caroline Criado Perez book Invisible Women: Exposing Data Bias in a World Designed for Men lays out very clearly that despite 60 years of women demanding a voice, the people in charge of planning and rule making are still blithely ignoring us. And there are no structures in place to punish them for disregarding the interests of 51% of the population, because women don’t get to decide the laws. There aren’t even effective structures in place to protect us from stalking, domestic violence and sexual assault/murder in the guise of rough sex gone wrong, despite all the knowledge we have accrued around those issues, because our perspective is dismissed as irrelevant when guidelines are decided.

It’s very interesting to find out that it is still the case that when girls and women speak more than 30% of the time in a mixed group they are seen as being pushy and dominating the conversation. This was known in the early 80’s, and we were supposed to be working in schools, businesses and all through society to change attitudes. So how come it is still exactly the same nearly 40 years later?

Political parties put systems in place to combat the skewed tendency of male power structures to pick males for promotion, in an effort to increase the number of women MPs. Then they relax and congratulate themselves, and feel quite content once 30% of their number are women. Preferably inexperienced young women, who won’t cause as much trouble as older harridans, and who can be sidelined if they become a nuisance.

We are still far from the 51/49% ratio of proportional representation and now, without consulting us, women’s shortlists, awards, and programmes aimed at boosting women’s skills have been thrown open to people of the male sex. Transwomen, who have benefited from being raised male in a male dominated society. Their voices have been heard, their egos have been massaged, some of them may have even been raised praising god every morning for HIS goodness in having not caused them to be born female. Why does their demand to be treated as female outweigh the never-yet-realised rights of the female sex to be fairly represented at the higher levels of existing power structures? Why are women who try to draw attention to this fact castigated as being so vile and full of hatred that they must be shunned, sacked, cancelled, bludgeoned with a barbed wire wrapped baseball bat, kerbstomped and burnt to death in a grease fire?

Sometimes a truly ambitious women will dry up her milk of human kindness and fight her way to the top by blending in perfectly with the power hungry men. Despising the weaker females whose health fails or who drop out of the race to raise children and take on the care of disabled dependents. Those power hungry women have no more empathy than the males they emulate and manipulate to gain power, so they don’t do the rest of us any good. They are used to show the rest of us that the path to power is open if only women were good enough to tread it successfully.

So long as males dominate all the decision making they can dismiss our concerns. I’d like our think tank to do a lot of hard thinking about how we can change this situation. What can we do that we haven’t already tried in the past 60 years?

stumbledin · 16/11/2019 15:18

Have to say I have thought for years there should be a woman focused think tank. But the big problem is that it doesn't matter how good the work of the think tank is, if the media wont report you, you aren't going to get far.

I am never quite sure how it is that some so called experts, eg Clare Fox who went from tory, to marxist and now Brexit Party was always asked onto tv to provide comments. As it just seemed to be her and her partner who set up the Institute of Ideas.

And in terms of existing feminist think tanks there are many more than those listed so far as mumsnet is a fairly single focus political issue.

Women's Budget Group, Fawcett Society, Women's Resource Centre, Women's Aid and Rape Crisis are not just services but think tanks. There have been attempts to bring different feminist groups together EVAW for example.

And there was that fairly recent attempt to set up the women expert groups so that commentators weren't always men.

And also know that when it suits them the media will pick up mumsnet ideas, eg changing rooms, lib dems rejecting GC Women.

On of the things that happens to feminism isn't just as the post up thread suggest that feminism (women's liberation) went out of fashion but each generation doesn't want to carry on the work of other women. The want to be the owners, the originators. eg 3rd wave feminism which the media hyped way beyond its actual reach allowed a few groups to establish themselves as representative, eg UK Feminista which some here may never have heard of but because it got media interest at the time is still used for commentating etc..

FiLia is another example of basically reiventing the wheel.

So I am all for a think tank, but if it is just replicating what other women's networks are doing, why? Do you think it will have a USP that somehow the media and politicians will more positively respond to than other feminist groupings?

But if it is to be a gender critical one can you think that the range of sex based rights women's groups would actually agree to work together.

I am not wanting to be negative but dont think we have time to re-invent the wheel.

Maybe it would be better to see where the gaps are and then see if a new group could fill it.

Or maybe what a priority is, is to make sure that the media and politicians dont ignore the work and opinions and research of existing groups and work as lobbyists to ensure that these power makes dont just put anything labeled feminist into the pending tray.