Anyone want to talk about men, women, and sex?

[PuertoVallarta]

I am trying to think through some ideas around sex and relationships. I apologize if my ideas are not that clear. I suppose that’s why I need help.

Was talking with a male friend who told me all the women he’s been with have enjoyed anal sex. And I said, “You don’t know that. Of course they’re going to act like they like it. They know they have to like it.” He was surprised and very hurt. I felt bad for casting doubt on his previous relations. I had no proof that these women were faking it, just because I myself can’t imagine anyone liking it.

But I do believe in my heart of hearts that women know they have to like sex stuff unquestioningly. On one hand, because we don’t want to hurt men’s feelings. On another hand, because we love men and we enjoy our relationships and we don’t want to lose them over something silly.

And I also believe that men don’t really consider women’s feelings in the same way. Instead of going along because they are scared of hurting us, the vast majority of men will harbor a growing resentment toward a female partner who denies them certain sex acts that they want.

When I asked the people around me, all I got was the same answer: “If one person wants to do something in the bedroom, and the other person doesn’t, then they are not sexually compatible. He shouldn’t pressure her. He should just leave her so they can both find someone they are compatible with.”

It is so depressing to me! Am I just being a control freak to think it’s unfair to ask women (almost all women, I think) to either give it up or be abandoned? Yes, I know nobody is entitled to a relationship. But I feel like this idea of “compatibility” is a result of women’s worth being tied to what we can provide sexually. A few days have passed since this discussion. My friend is still hurt by my comment, and I am sinking into a depression thinking about how this notion of “compatibility” might just be a way to keep women in line.

Perhaps my thinking is way off the mark. If anyone has time to share their own thoughts, it would be appreciated.

In the Original Post we are told:

"...Was talking with a male friend who told me all the women he’s been with have enjoyed anal sex..."

I have highlighted what I think is the key word.

I think it's interesting that the man in question now has hurty feelz because the OP made him think a bit about what he said.

I completely agree, it isn't happening,but that's what needs to happen.

Yes.

[regarding caning] I wouldn't consider that dangerous

A cane can cut the skin. it's dangerous

but why does that matter? is violence only to be illegal if it reaches some bar of 'danger'?

There are a lot of good responses that help me organize my thoughts.

Honestly, it is tiring that people read things like, “maybe we should be concerned that a lot of women might be having unwanted anal sex for some reasons we might like to discuss” as “I’m judging all women who like anal sex and think they are lying and they must be damaged”. You’re tilting at windmills here.

I did not tell my friend that no women like anal sex. I told him he wouldn’t really know if his partners had or hadn’t, because women are conditioned to VERY OFTEN act cheerful about doing stuff we don’t want to do.

And I saw he was very hurt because he’d never thought of this.

But I think whether individuals are aware of it or not, this dynamic wherein men’s sexual needs are an artificially (?) high priority exists in our society.

But I think whether individuals are aware of it or not, this dynamic wherein men’s sexual needs are an artificially (?) high priority exists in our society.

Definitely.

It's perfectly acceptable research which highlighted concerning behaviours around anal sex in young people which you don't seem to want to accept.

Ok. If you accept that a sample size of 43 can give you a picture of what's happening around sex in young people then I think you are mistaken. It says 100% of males - how many is that then? 33% of females - how many?

The 100% as I said might only be 1 male. You still think that is good research and the results indicate attitudes in young people?

You are only supporting this research because it confirms your views. We're it to counter your views then you would be dismissing it as invalid. Which it is.

Is it men's sexual needs though or is it just some cliched behaviour they are copying?

Men in healthy sexual relationships (ime) seek loving satisfying physical and mental experience as much as women do. I don't believe that men in general naturally want to dominate and inflict pain on sexual partners although this is the narrative that is being pushed in popular culture.

I find it very interesting that the fact that I object to people hurting and injuring others for sexual pleasure makes you assume I only endorse missionary position sex - why is that?

It's not about people hurting each other it's about the rights of individuals to consent. If 2 people consent to spanking each other do you disagree with it?

Where are your lines drawn?

How about if one person doesn't like to give, or to receive, oral sex? That's not hurting anyone or causing pain but it's something that they don't want to do.

I see BDSM as the same. It doesn't matter what I like or do t like, see as being normal or not. It's up to the people concerned to draw their own boundaries, within the law.

You are only supporting this research because it confirms your views. We're it to counter your views then you would be dismissing it as invalid. Which it is.

No, I recognise that these studies use smaller sample size than quantitative studies. It's one of the limitations of the research. I don't think that makes them "invalid", or that you are remotely qualified to proclaim that with any authority. It's quite ignorant.

The individual interviews were a fairly equal split of young men and women.

I see BDSM as the same

it's not the same. all but the most vanilla BDSM involves hurting and injuring others

It's up to the people concerned to draw their own boundaries, within the law

but this is the point isn't it? hurting and injuring others outside the bedroom is generally illegal. but thanks to the insidious creep of moral relativism and post modernism, as ably demonstrated by you on this this thread, there is increasing acceptance that it's OK and maybe even normal to hurt or injure your partner during sex. that maybe if you don't like it you're only into the missionary position.

I did not tell my friend that no women like anal sex. I told him he wouldn’t really know if his partners had or hadn’t, because women are conditioned to VERY OFTEN act cheerful about doing stuff we don’t want to do.

But tbh then, if this is the case, how can anyone know that their partner wants to do any sexual act at all?

You've focused on anal but if, as you say, women are conditioned to VERY OFTEN act cheerful about doing stuff we don’t want to do. then that could apply to anything, not just anal.

How can you overcome that? What do you suggest should happen?

The individual interviews were a fairly equal split of young men and women.

Do they say that?

But tbh then, if this is the case, how can anyone know that their partner wants to do any sexual act at all?

Good communication is key here isn't it? Needs taught to children from the start, along with good boundaries/resilience/respect etc.

The OP presented is another version of the scene from When Harry met Sally, nothing new about men finding out women fake it sometimes!

Good communication is key here isn't it? Needs taught to children from the start, along with good boundaries/resilience/respect etc.

And to be crystal clear I mean as life tools in general as well as for future adult (sex life) situations!

it's not the same. all but the most vanilla BDSM involves hurting and injuring others

So what do you consider to be acceptable then?

but thanks to the insidious creep of moral relativism and post modernism, as ably demonstrated by you on this this thread, there is increasing acceptance that it's OK and maybe even normal to hurt or injure your partner during sex. that maybe if you don't like it you're only into the missionary position.

I don't think it's a new thing at all, particularly amongst men seeking out dominatrix type encounters. That's not a recent phenomena.

I know that you are trying to blame porn and men for pushing this type of sex but certainly amongst people that I know and work with there has definitely been an interest in it since the release of 50 shades of grey and that has been driven by the women who read it, not men.

Maybe someone should do a study into the 50 shades effect on our sex lives.

I think more people than you realise are into what you call vanilla BDSM - is restraint, flogging, spanking etc. That's certainly what I'm hearing amongst my friends.

and wouldn't it be helpful if men didn't react to finding out that some women don't like the same things as them by going into a sulk as the OP's friend appears to have done!

Yes, Coffee. Good point. “Needs” wasn’t the right word.

I’m badly paraphrasing Germaine Greer, but she said something about men and women wanting different things from sex. I’m not sure it’s entirely conditioned. But I don’t know, and we really can’t know if it’s innate or conditioned so for now that’s besides the point.

I don’t like the sex education framed as, consent and boundaries. I mean, it’s a start. But we all know when we hear it, we are talking about female consent and boundaries. I want to know why that is, and I think people should talk about that in sex education classes (instead of genderfeelz, but I digress...)

Yes. Read the study. 37 women and 34 men were individually interviewed. They don't give the sex split of the group interviews, but they appear to have taken care to reduce bias in most elements of the study so I have no reason to suppose that they didn't there as well. I'm sure you could write to them and ask them for that information if you wanted.

About the study the researchers say:

This is a qualitative study, with an in-depth analysis of a smaller sample than would be usual for epidemiological studies, but which spans three locations and diverse social groups. Whether or not the concept of ‘generalisability’ should be applied in qualitative research is a matter of debate,26 but we would argue that this study provides useful, credible working hypotheses or theories about anal sexual practice among young men and women that are likely to apply outside our group of interviewees.

and wouldn't it be helpful if men didn't react to finding out that some women don't like the same things as them by going into a sulk as the OP's friend appears to have done!

Yes it would but then to be fair if one of your friends had just told you that the chances were your previous sexual partners hadn't enjoyed having sex with you and just did it to please you then you might be a bit upset by it, no?

So what do you consider to be acceptable then?

I think I've been very clear about that. I don't consider hurting or injuring people acceptable. However I'm very well aware that people will do it. I would like the risk to be on the perpetrator as much as possible.

I know this will drive people into a fury and they'll feel very judged, but I will say it anyway. I regard it as very unhealthy to want to hurt others, or to be hurt. That's for any reason, including sexual pleasure. It doesn't mean I feel I should have the power to stop people doing it, but it does mean that I think we should endeavour to protect as much as possible people whose lives have led them to a place where they find being hurt sexually fulfilling.

Excellent post Bernard - and bears repeating:
hurting and injuring others outside the bedroom is generally illegal. but thanks to the insidious creep of moral relativism and post modernism, as ably demonstrated by you on this this thread, there is increasing acceptance that it's OK and maybe even normal to hurt or injure your partner during sex. that maybe if you don't like it you're only into the missionary position
When I look at all the murder as 'sex gone wrong' cases, predatory adults being able to sell their programmes pushing extreme porn to 13 year olds as positive, I know that we're lowering boundaries in ways that actively harm people - and that's men as well as women:

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/am_i_being_unreasonable/3701737-Teen-advice-makes-me-worried

Ereshkigal

So they're basically saying what I've been saying - the sample is too small to draw wider conclusions from but that it could form the hypothesis for further studies (which is exactly what I said).

Yes it would but then to be fair if one of your friends had just told you that the chances were your previous sexual partners hadn't enjoyed having sex with you and just did it to please you then you might be a bit upset by it, no?

It could have been worse. she could have mentioned my first thought (and raised by a PP too), that if every woman he's had anal with didn't find it uncomfortable at all, his dick must be tiny

They didn't say that. They said

Whether or not the concept of ‘generalisability’ should be applied in qualitative research is a matter of debate,26 but we would argue that this study provides useful, credible working hypotheses or theories about anal sexual practice among young men and women that are likely to apply outside our group of interviewees.

And go on to suggest it could inform sex education and public health work:

Anal sex among young people in this study appeared to be taking place in a context encouraging pain, risk and coercion. Harm reduction efforts targeting anal sex may help encourage discussion about mutuality and consent, reduce risky and painful techniques and challenge views that normalise coercion.

BernardBlacksWineIceLolly

And they could be equally judgemental and say that people who feel like you are repressed sexually we should endeavour to protect as much as possible people whose lives have led them to a place where they are unable to live fulfilled lives due to this repression.

Extreme acts that could result in serious injury I am sure would be covered by the law in the same way that it would be illegal to kill me even if I asked you to do it.

Many people do enjoy this type of sex, maybe more so at the milder end of the scale, and it would be interesting not see the results of a study into it. My suspicion is that it is more "normal" than you seem to think it is and as such could simply be a normal.expression of human sexuality rather than a symptom of a damaged life.