Anyone want to talk about men, women, and sex?

[PuertoVallarta]

I am trying to think through some ideas around sex and relationships. I apologize if my ideas are not that clear. I suppose that’s why I need help.

Was talking with a male friend who told me all the women he’s been with have enjoyed anal sex. And I said, “You don’t know that. Of course they’re going to act like they like it. They know they have to like it.” He was surprised and very hurt. I felt bad for casting doubt on his previous relations. I had no proof that these women were faking it, just because I myself can’t imagine anyone liking it.

But I do believe in my heart of hearts that women know they have to like sex stuff unquestioningly. On one hand, because we don’t want to hurt men’s feelings. On another hand, because we love men and we enjoy our relationships and we don’t want to lose them over something silly.

And I also believe that men don’t really consider women’s feelings in the same way. Instead of going along because they are scared of hurting us, the vast majority of men will harbor a growing resentment toward a female partner who denies them certain sex acts that they want.

When I asked the people around me, all I got was the same answer: “If one person wants to do something in the bedroom, and the other person doesn’t, then they are not sexually compatible. He shouldn’t pressure her. He should just leave her so they can both find someone they are compatible with.”

It is so depressing to me! Am I just being a control freak to think it’s unfair to ask women (almost all women, I think) to either give it up or be abandoned? Yes, I know nobody is entitled to a relationship. But I feel like this idea of “compatibility” is a result of women’s worth being tied to what we can provide sexually. A few days have passed since this discussion. My friend is still hurt by my comment, and I am sinking into a depression thinking about how this notion of “compatibility” might just be a way to keep women in line.

Perhaps my thinking is way off the mark. If anyone has time to share their own thoughts, it would be appreciated.

In terms of the sexual compatibility issue - yeah, I find the idea that if your tastes aren't matched you aren't compatible really depressing.

The above is important for many people though, just as agreeing on finances, children etc is also really important for many couples. Both people have to be happy/comfortable with decisions that effect both people in the relationship.

Personally for me I need someone who eventually wants to live with and marry their partner, not be in debt (apart from mortgage etc), have similar ideas about sex, be monogamous, be able to cope with a child being on the scene, and on top of that the obvious things, kind, considerate etc. I personally wouldn’t be willing to compromise on any of those things in a longterm relationship.

Anyone in a relationship should be able to safely and confidently say exactly what they do and don’t want to do. Anyone in a relationship should also stop their partner feeling as though they need to do something they aren’t really keen on doing.

I really don’t get the whole doing something sexually you aren’t keen on. My ex didn’t like the idea of sex so we didn’t have sex, I thought I would be fine without, turns out I was wrong. But if he had changed his mind I wouldn’t have started to have sex with him as I know he would be attempting to please me, rather than actually wanting to do it. How can anyone enjoy doing something that they know their partner doesn’t really want to do and doesn’t really enjoy doing?

I personally wouldn’t be willing to compromise on any of those things in a longterm relationship

You are likely to be very disappointed then; and unless you find someone willing to totally subject themselves to your wants and needs, lonely to boot.

No woman should be pushed or coerced or feel the need to pretend she likes something she doesn't.

But equally, I think it's a bit much for other women to decide that they're the sex police informing other people what they do/don't like. It seems a little weird to me.

But equally, I think it's a bit much for other women to decide that they're the sex police informing other people what they do/don't like. It seems a little weird to me

I don't think anyone is really disputing that some people 'like' certain things...but are taking the discussion further, in analysing where 'likes' and desires arise from in the first instance. What shapes 'likes' and 'desire'. They are not immovable and unchangeable facts, but shifting conditions based on variable factors.

It's like asking someone, " Are you happy" ? What does that even mean?

@Justhadathought I have a very lovely boyfriend who has almost identical needs in a relationship.

Being kind, monogamous, wanting legal commitment etc aren’t exactly unsual in a relationship. How many people do you know who want someone in debt, non-monogamous, opposite ideas about sex and who is unkind?!

This thread reminded me of this FWR thread from earlier this year about the terrible consequences for young people from the normalising of porn:

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3538883-DM-The-true-toll-of-porn-Girls-who-hate-their-bodies-and-young-men-who-cant-perform-in-relationships-by-a-GP-whos-seen-the-harm-it-does-to-teens

Justhadathought
But that usually seems to mean concluding that anything outside the judger's idea of acceptable must be negative.

I'm guessing that doesn't mean sitting around wondering where someone's preference for massage and long sessions Vs a quickie comes from, and is more about deciding that X Y Z positions are from stable backgrounds but A B C positions must be a sign something has gone wrong for them or they're replying negative experiences etc.

If someone enjoys something and makes a fully informed decision to consent to it, I would feel quite uncomfortable telling them they can't like it / they may think they like it but actually...

And tomorrow is bumsex Friday.

Coincidence?...

If a bloke couldn't forgo bum sex for me, the he doesn't really love and respect me.

But I understand what your saying op. If all men like butt fucking, and only 33% of women, then the women who dislike it may lose their "Prince charming" to one of the 33%.

But I think in reality, that's what men want us to think so that we will be willing participants. I don't think extreme sex acts are actually a deal braker for most men.

I've just finished reading a very interesting book called 'Inferior' by Angela Saini, about how science gets women wrong, which has some very interesting commentary about women and sexuality.

She writes about how traditionally, women are seen as being monogamous, not keen on sex etc, and this is seen as an evolutionary 'natural' feature of women. Yet if it were natural for women, then why did human society develop such aggressive 'mate guarding', a variation of the things male animals do in nature to keep other males away from their mate? If there was never anything to guard against because women are chaste and monogamous, why a culture of shaming, enforced modesty, FGM etc. This rather suggests women have been culturally shaped as not up for sex, not 'naturally'.

Re: anal sex, some women do like it but I fear pornified culture is teaching a new generation of girls that sex has to be 'endured', not in this case because of marriage/duty, this time, but because porn sex is an endurance marathon of how much a woman can 'take'. I'm not going to morally panic about anal sex, but I do worry that women will get hurt because of dumb idiots who aren't embarrassed to ask for it but feel too scared to buy a tube of lube at the chemists that they need to do it safely.

I'm think of advising my daughter when she's older that if any guy asks her to allow him to do anal, she should say onlyif she can do it to him first!

To be enthusiastically involved, one is actively participating in the sex act because one wishes to do so of one's own volition.

Yeah, it might be that not everyone feels they want to meet your particular definition of activly involved. Great if you don't want to have sex with them yourself, but it's really none of your business if other people don't want to meet your definition of active. Or for that matter, if they want to ghave sex without being "enthusiastic".

It's a pretty useless guideline if you ask me. By all means, if something seems amiss with your partner, ask them about it. But the idea that it's generally easy to notice if something is amiss is shaky in my experience. And I'd be pretty annoyed if someone told me that I wasn't being enthusiastic or active to the degree they find acceptable.

I have a very lovely boyfriend who has almost identical needs in a relationship. Being kind, monogamous, wanting legal commitment etc aren’t exactly unsual in a relationship. How many people do you know who want someone in debt, non-monogamous, opposite ideas about sex and who is unkind?!

Kind and monogamous are one thing, but matched sexual interests or desires are very unlikely to be continually present in a long term relationship. It's kind of like asking for a partner who permanently has complimentary views about housework. There will always be times, sometimes significant periods, where there will need to be compromise, and that often means someone forgoing something they'd very much like, including having sex at all, or someone doing something that isn't really up their alley, including having sex at all.

You can actually orgasm (females) from anal sex as the clit is like a ‘wishbone’ and can be stimulated between the wall separating the rectum and vagina.... so I think it’s very possible some women enjoy it.

The pressures on young women to enjoy it are high though. I do think sexual compatibility is important but most men wouldn’t see anal sex as the be all and end all.

The pressures on young women to enjoy it are high though.

I think the pressures on young women to do it are high. And the pressure to say they enjoy it are high.

But so many men these days have got their ideas from porn where the women's enjoyment is not relevant, or faked (eg pretending they are going to orgasm from first penetration).

I consider it similar to how a lot of young women supposedly like to be choked/beaten/strangled during sex these days... Except we know it's not a lot. They just either feel like they have to do it to be "cool", or they need to rewrite the narrative after a terrible experience to make them feel like they were more in control, or they do it because their partner likes it and they want to make him happy.

In fact they were 16 - 18 year olds so even less representative than I first thought.

So yes ereshkigal, I do have a problem with their methodology.

Why? They specifically set out to study young people for a reason. It's a valid point to make about the normalisation of anal sex as something women are expected to do. No one is claiming it's "all women" who are coerced into anal sex or don't totes love it. But if you give a fuck about young women, it's rather troubling, no? Perhaps you don't. Fair enough.

They just either feel like they have to do it to be "cool", or they need to rewrite the narrative after a terrible experience to make them feel like they were more in control, or they do it because their partner likes it and they want to make him happy.

The latter isn't necessarily bad so long as it's within bounds of respect for yourself, IYSWIM.

I tend to think with both of these things, choking and anal, for many it's like someone said above, the appeal at first is often that it seems taboo and risky, which can be a major turn-on in itself both for men and women. So, that seems exiting. But it's pretty limited, once you've done it a few times that thrill is gone, and you have to try something new for the same effect.
But the idea of making sex mainly about that kind of thrill doesn't seem very sustainable to me, it's always going to have to become more extreme and from what I've seen it can tend to lead to really unsafe behaviours in some people who try and make that happen. I've wondered if that isn't part of the reason that over the last 60 years or so we keep seeing new activities becoming "normal". Every generation needs to transgress a new taboo.

After 20 years out of the dating scene, it has been quite eye opening to have sex again. Anal expectarion is SO MUCH MORE prevalent now, as is hair pulling.

The effect of porn is real.

I think the point is that nothing happens in a vacuum, including sex

so we know women are expected to be self sacrificing, to put the needs and wants of others above themselves

why would that disappear in the bedroom?

so yes, there will be women who enjoy anal sex. but there will also be plenty who don't, but do it anyway

personally, it was a very liberating day when I decided that I simply wasn't going to have anal sex, whatever the consequences

But I understand what your saying op. If all men like butt fucking, and only 33% of women, then the women who dislike it may lose their "Prince charming" to one of the 33%.

But those statistics come from a study of 130 16 - 18 year olds, male and female. I really don't think you can take the results from that study, apply it to the population as a whole and then declare that all men like anal sex and only 33% of women do.

Ereshkigal

I have a problem with taking those results at face value. 130 males and females aged 16 -18 isn't a representative sample. How many were male, how many female? Was it half and half? In which case 65 men say they like anal, and then the women were 20/20/20 in their answers?

How can you say any of that represents what's happening in young people let alone the population as a whole?

It's got nothing to do with not caring, it's saying that the study was flawed and the conclusions that you can draw from it are extremely.limited.

I think the key is in teaching girls and boys that they have every right to have boundaries, to ask for what they want, to be assertive and say no if they don't like it but respect others boundaries and their right to say no too.

I don't see anything wrong with 1 partner suggesting something that they like but that has to be done with the knowledge that the other person has the absolute right to say no.

I don't think we can apply value judgements to sexual likes either. Even if 99% of people do X I still have the right to say that I don't want to do it. Equally 99% of people don't want to do it I have the right to enjoy it, so long as I make sure to find a partner who also likes doing it.

There was a thread the other day where the man didn't enjoy giving oral and people were basically saying that he should do it because his partner enjoys it and it's considered normal. I don't agree with that either. It doesn't matter what is considered normal. It's for the 2 people concerned to decide what they want to do, not for society to apply pressure for either of them to do something that they don't want to.

oy

so now we can't say that some women find anal sex painful? why not? i mean it's pretty self evident isn't it?

and the risk of serious injury is well understood, so a very good reason to choose not to do it

can we accept that plenty of women have chosen or would like to chose not to have anal sex? or does choosy choice only go one way?

I don't think we can apply value judgements to sexual likes either

you don't think we should judge people who like to hurt or injure others during sex?

crikey

is it OK to judge people who like to hurt or injure others in the street, or do we suspend all judgement forever from here on in?

Of course you can say some women find it painful but that's not what the op was saying. She was saying that no women enjoy it. Other posters were saying that basically no woman enjoys it. Even if they think they do it's just an illusion and they're acting out a past trauma.

And I'd previously said that so long as the sex act was legal then it was not our business. So, if people enjoy BDSM then is it for us to judge? As long as the individuals concerned agree to it and aren't coerced then it's up to them isn't it?

Can some of you just fuck off saying that if a woman likes certain sexual things she only likes it because of cultural pressure or internalized misogyny or some other bullshit. People like different things for different reasons, and to suggest the only reason a woman would enjoy things such as anal etc is due to outside forces warping her delicate little mind is so anti-woman. It strips us entirely of agency and suggests we are all inherently damaged and easily led.

Yes some women are, as plenty of human beings are - damaged and flawed. Plenty of women are not. I've spent the last 15 years with DH exploring my feelings around sex after an iffy start as a teenager (no assault though) and throughout my DHs main, if not only, concern if that I am enjoying myself. I have never felt pressure and he would be immediately turned off if there was any hint I was doing something just for him. It's impossible we are that especially unusual. In that time I've had space to learn about myself and my sexuality and I would never be so ignorant and superior as to believe that the things that don't get me going therefore don't really get any other women going. That would be ridiculous.

My theory is that it is in fact women who have had bad experiences in the past who are more likely to insist that other women can't possibly really like certain things. They can't imagine it because their own dark experiences cloud it for them, but then they try and switch it and say the women who do it must be similarly traumatised.