Anyone want to talk about men, women, and sex?

[PuertoVallarta]

I am trying to think through some ideas around sex and relationships. I apologize if my ideas are not that clear. I suppose that’s why I need help.

Was talking with a male friend who told me all the women he’s been with have enjoyed anal sex. And I said, “You don’t know that. Of course they’re going to act like they like it. They know they have to like it.” He was surprised and very hurt. I felt bad for casting doubt on his previous relations. I had no proof that these women were faking it, just because I myself can’t imagine anyone liking it.

But I do believe in my heart of hearts that women know they have to like sex stuff unquestioningly. On one hand, because we don’t want to hurt men’s feelings. On another hand, because we love men and we enjoy our relationships and we don’t want to lose them over something silly.

And I also believe that men don’t really consider women’s feelings in the same way. Instead of going along because they are scared of hurting us, the vast majority of men will harbor a growing resentment toward a female partner who denies them certain sex acts that they want.

When I asked the people around me, all I got was the same answer: “If one person wants to do something in the bedroom, and the other person doesn’t, then they are not sexually compatible. He shouldn’t pressure her. He should just leave her so they can both find someone they are compatible with.”

It is so depressing to me! Am I just being a control freak to think it’s unfair to ask women (almost all women, I think) to either give it up or be abandoned? Yes, I know nobody is entitled to a relationship. But I feel like this idea of “compatibility” is a result of women’s worth being tied to what we can provide sexually. A few days have passed since this discussion. My friend is still hurt by my comment, and I am sinking into a depression thinking about how this notion of “compatibility” might just be a way to keep women in line.

Perhaps my thinking is way off the mark. If anyone has time to share their own thoughts, it would be appreciated.

is it OK to judge people who like to hurt or injure others in the street, or do we suspend all judgement forever from here on in?

That's illegal though.

Jenala

I completely agree.

It's got nothing to do with not caring, it's saying that the study was flawed

It's not "flawed", because it wasn't attempting to answer the question "do all women like anal sex". It was specifically studying people aged 16- 18. It's a perfectly reasonable study.

My point was that its findings are quite concerning for young women. If you care about them. I can see why you might dismiss them if you don't.

I think the point is that nothing happens in a vacuum, including sex

so we know women are expected to be self sacrificing, to put the needs and wants of others above themselves

why would that disappear in the bedroom?

so yes, there will be women who enjoy anal sex. but there will also be plenty who don't, but do it anyway

Exactly. Not ALL women but I fail to see why this concept is so hard to grasp.

It was specifically studying people aged 16- 18. It's a perfectly reasonable study.

There is nothing reasonable about quoting a study which asked children about their views on adult sex.

Ereshkigal

Kindly stop twisting my words. What I've said does not suggest in any way that I don't care about young girls so stop insinuating that I'm saying it.

Even if this study was intending to look at attitudes amongst young people only studying 130 of them tells you very very little. There's biases at play too - that age group are very likely to be playing into stereotypes, to be likely to say what they think should be said rather than what they actually are feeling. I wonder how they actually conducted the study - face to face, individually or in groups, by anonymous questionnaires?

If I were to put forward an argument opposing a statement you made, and cited a study of 130 respondents with a very narrow age range, backing up my argument you would year it to shreds. This study is nothing more than an interesting insight into these 130 young people and possibly forms the basis for further studies. Yet already in this thread we are seeing people taking the statistics and applying them across the population - a pp saying that if all men like anal but only 33% of women do - that is the statistic from that study and the data is being applied incorrectly.

That's what I'm pointing out. Nothing to do with me not caring about anyone but pointing out the limited range of this study and the possible flaws in its methodology.

We should apply critical thinking to all studies, not just accept them blindly.

And I'd previously said that so long as the sex act was legal then it was not our business
Caning someone in the street would not be legal. Do you contend that it is / should be legal in the bedroom?

So, if people enjoy BDSM then is it for us to judge?
Yes. It’s perfectly reasonable to judge people who enjoy hurting others

As long as the individuals concerned agree to it and aren't coerced then it's up to them isn't it?
You’re cool with the chap who ate a consenting adult? Is ‘consent’ all that matters?

Even if this study was intending to look at attitudes amongst young people only studying 130 of them tells you very very little.

It's a qualitative study across three different locations recruiting participants from a range of sources. Care was taken in this not to bias the sample. It involved in depth interviews with the participants. It's perfectly acceptable research.

You really don't come across as particularly knowledgeable about how this type of research is carried out. It's not a yes I like anal sex no I don't exercise.

There is nothing reasonable about quoting a study which asked children about their views on adult sex.

16 is the age of consent.

I wonder how they actually conducted the study - face to face, individually or in groups, by anonymous questionnaires?

No need to "wonder". Try reading it. The link is there.

You’re cool with the chap who ate a consenting adult? Is ‘consent’ all that matters?

Is that legal? Clearly it isn't so why do you think I'm cool with it? I have already said as long as it is legal...

Caning someone in the street would not be legal. Do you contend that it is / should be legal in the bedroom?

Having sex in the street isn't legal either so do you think it should be banned in the bedroom?

Why are you so hung up on what other people do in private? If it is legal and everyone consents then why is it any of your business?

Why are you so hung up on what other people do in private? If it is legal and everyone consents then why is it any of your business?

Because none of this happens in a vacuum. Men are successfully using "rough sex gone wrong" as a legal defence to murder. Even though acts likely to cause serious harm are supposedly illegal after the R v Brown ruling.

Why are you so hung up on what other people do in private?

You’re not even a little freaked out or judgey about people who take sexual pleasure from hurting or injuring others? I think you’ve achieved your moral relativism badge. Congratulations!

If it is legal and everyone consents then why is it any of your business?

Because it leads directly to the situation of the man who was able to argue successfully that his partner had consented to having her vagina ripped open with a spray bottle of bleach

They approached children in the street/schools/youth clubs, quizzed them about sex and then narrowed that group down for "in depth interviews".

Many of our interviewees talked about anal sexual practices unprompted (whether they had engaged in them or not) and so in wave two, we specifically asked all of our participants about their perception and, if relevant, their experience of anal practices (about a quarter of our in-depth interviewees reported anal sexual experiences). Our aim was to explore the key discourses surrounding anal sexual practices among this age group and to elicit detailed accounts of specific experiences.

Their wave two group numbered 43. Does not say how many M/F. So it seems about 10 kids aged 16-18 (don't know what sex or age) claimed to have experience of anal and these are the results. How many teenagers do you know who would have an experienced honest in depth conversation with an adult about sex?

It is a bit of a jump to then apply that statistic to the adult population's typical sex life.

That said I agree that young people are led astray by porn culture and that it has seeped into mainstream culture to the extent that movie sex starts with violence, text books show hairless genitals etc. I think it is very sad that a generation are being raised to think image is more important than experience and as a result are endangering their health and missing out on the chance of a full and happy loving sex life as adults.

It's a qualitative study across three different locations recruiting participants from a range of sources. Care was taken in this not to bias the sample. It involved in depth interviews with the participants. It's perfectly acceptable research.

You really don't come across as particularly knowledgeable about how this type of research is carried out. It's not a yes I like anal sex no I don't exercise.

I think it is you who doesn't understand much about research techniques.

Qualitative research is notorious for being subject to bias. You cannot factor out the impact of the presence of the interviewer on the respondent. A big issue is the risk of the respondent giving the answer that they think the interviewer wants, or of the respondent living up to a stereotype.

So you could easily imagine boys of that age group feeling like everyone else is having sex and therefore saying that they are too because they don't want to seem like the odd one out. Same could be said about doing anal. In reality probably far fewer of them are having sex, let alone anal, but they're all too scared to admit it.

I'd trust the results more if they had been collected via anonymous questionnaires but even then the sample is still so small as to be statistically meaningless.

Qualitative research is notorious for being subject to bias. You cannot factor out the impact of the presence of the interviewer on the respondent. A big issue is the risk of the respondent giving the answer that they think the interviewer wants, or of the respondent living up to a stereotype.

I do understand it. There are limitations in all types of research. Some types of research aren't suitable to answer certain questions. I happen to think it's relevant because it gives us a richer picture. Yes, there are lots of people who blithely dismiss all qualitative social science research. I think that's foolish.

It's not about worth but it is about compatibility. It's the same in same sex relationships - you both have to actually enjoy the same things or what's the point? It will only lead to bad acting, revulsion and a breakdown the relationship if you go along with things you don't enjoy. It's not 'depressing' to be honest and end things and give each other a chance to find someone compatible.

I also wonder whether there isn't a significant minority of 'straight' women who, whilst being hetero-romantic are actually indifferent at best towards men sexually. Again, not a bad thing but honesty and self knowledge is what's required. The older i get the more i think i maybe feel this way about men myself. There's a particular guy i see around and i like that he seems attracted to me, it's flattering, and i think he's quite nice looking. In the past that would have been enough to convince me i should sleep with him but now i just think "would i really want to go there?"

You’re not even a little freaked out or judgey about people who take sexual pleasure from hurting or injuring others? I think you’ve achieved your moral relativism badge. Congratulations!

I can't see the pleasure in doing lots of these things, so I don't do them. That's not to say that I don't think anyone should do them, just because I don't want to.

Some people are harmed by vile scumbags forcing them to submit to acts that seriously injure or sadly kill them. That's despicable and those perpetrators should be punished but just because there are some evil people out there I don't see thats a reason to tell everyone else, who is capable of having a fully consenting encounter, that they can't do something.

How are you going to seek to ban these things? Are you going to put spy cams in every bedroom to make sure everyone only has sex in the missionary position? Surely education is the way to go here? We teach all young people about consent, about boundaries, about the right to say no and the need to respect no, about coercion and control within relationships, educate them about what a healthy relationship looks like.

Yes, there are lots of people who blithely dismiss all qualitative social science research. I think that's foolish.

I'm not blithely dismissing it. I'm saying that the sample size here is just too small (130 initially and then down to 40 odd) and they've not said how many male of how many female. They could have only interviewed 1 male and then say, correctly, that 100% of the males said...

It's poor research. If they can replicate those results across bigger samples then I would believe that interviewer bias or methods of sample selection didn't affect the results.

We teach all young people about consent, about boundaries, about the right to say no and the need to respect no, about coercion and control within relationships, educate them about what a healthy relationship looks like.

That's not what's happening in many cases though.

How are you going to seek to ban these things? Are you going to put spy cams in every bedroom to make sure everyone only has sex in the missionary position?

Why is there always insistence that anyone who questions unsafe sexual practice is a "missionary only" prude who must be shamed and ridiculed to shut them up?

That's not what's happening in many cases though.

I completely agree, it isn't happening,but that's what needs to happen.

Why is there always insistence that anyone who questions unsafe sexual practice is a "missionary only" prude who must be shamed and ridiculed to shut them up?

I wasn't trying to shame anyone or shut anyone up.

The poster I was replying to cited caning as a practice that should be illegal. Personally, although I don't see the enjoyment in it, I wouldn't consider that dangerous. So, my question really was, what do they consider to be acceptable acts?

I'm not blithely dismissing it.

Yes you are. This sample size, and even smaller is perfectly common for this type of qualitative study and even other types of study.

It's perfectly acceptable research which highlighted concerning behaviours around anal sex in young people which you don't seem to want to accept.

Your position is fundamentally illogical Hooves. you are concerned with legality. generally in civilised societies violence is illegal.

so why do you feel different about people being violent in the bedroom?

How are you going to seek to ban these things? Are you going to put spy cams in every bedroom to make sure everyone only has sex in the missionary position?

I find it very interesting that the fact that I object to people hurting and injuring others for sexual pleasure makes you assume I only endorse missionary position sex - why is that?

I think people will do what they want to do, particularly those with power over others. If we are very clear as a society that hurting others is illegal, it gives some level of protection to those consenting to be hurt. the person who likes hurting others takes on all the risk. if it goes too far or the person they are hurting changes their mind whilst they are being hurt and the activity doesn't stop, the perpetrator will be prosecuted.

makes sense to me

Surely education is the way to go here? We teach all young people about consent, about boundaries, about the right to say no and the need to respect no, about coercion and control within relationships, educate them about what a healthy relationship looks like

I 100% agree with you on this