Anyone want to talk about men, women, and sex?

[PuertoVallarta]

I am trying to think through some ideas around sex and relationships. I apologize if my ideas are not that clear. I suppose that’s why I need help.

Was talking with a male friend who told me all the women he’s been with have enjoyed anal sex. And I said, “You don’t know that. Of course they’re going to act like they like it. They know they have to like it.” He was surprised and very hurt. I felt bad for casting doubt on his previous relations. I had no proof that these women were faking it, just because I myself can’t imagine anyone liking it.

But I do believe in my heart of hearts that women know they have to like sex stuff unquestioningly. On one hand, because we don’t want to hurt men’s feelings. On another hand, because we love men and we enjoy our relationships and we don’t want to lose them over something silly.

And I also believe that men don’t really consider women’s feelings in the same way. Instead of going along because they are scared of hurting us, the vast majority of men will harbor a growing resentment toward a female partner who denies them certain sex acts that they want.

When I asked the people around me, all I got was the same answer: “If one person wants to do something in the bedroom, and the other person doesn’t, then they are not sexually compatible. He shouldn’t pressure her. He should just leave her so they can both find someone they are compatible with.”

It is so depressing to me! Am I just being a control freak to think it’s unfair to ask women (almost all women, I think) to either give it up or be abandoned? Yes, I know nobody is entitled to a relationship. But I feel like this idea of “compatibility” is a result of women’s worth being tied to what we can provide sexually. A few days have passed since this discussion. My friend is still hurt by my comment, and I am sinking into a depression thinking about how this notion of “compatibility” might just be a way to keep women in line.

Perhaps my thinking is way off the mark. If anyone has time to share their own thoughts, it would be appreciated.

Some women absolutely do say they enjoy anal and perhaps they truly do enjoy the sensation - human sexuality is quite complex though, so I would imagine that some people enjoy the perceived edginess of it, or prioritise pleasing their partner over themselves.

YY this is very true I think.

bmjopen.bmj.com/content/4/8/e004996

The BMJ study.

Women experiencing pain were often depicted as naive or flawed. Men and women said that women needed to ‘relax’ more, to ‘get used to it’:

Note that Mark refers, almost casually, to the idea that a woman might be ‘scared’ or ‘not willing’ in a scenario in which anal sex is possibly taking place, seemingly assuming a shared understanding with the interviewer that this would often be the case. Elsewhere in the interview, he talks about having hurt his partner during an anal sex ‘slip’ (see below), and so his talk about ‘easing off’ may reflect his ownperhaps more recentunderstanding of how it ‘should’ be performed.

Or a damning indictment of those surveyed - which may or may not have been a representative sample

See the link. And then if you like you can let the researchers know if you have any concerns about their study's methodology.

I think there are a lot of things going on with this.

I guess the simplest element is that yes, there are some women who like anal sex, or for that matter other things that might be considered niche.

I am not sure I'd say that I think men overall are happy to go on pushing women. My observation and experience has been that the experience of sex can be significantly different for women compared to men, and this leads to a very different way of thinking and acting.

For most men, it's a fairly straightforward enjoyable, or occasionally not enjoyable, experience. Yes, there are things like feeling inadequate or embarrassed or having a partner who is not a nice person. But whether they enjoy the actual act of sex or not is pretty clear to men on the whole. They also tend to think it's going to be fairly clear to women.

For women though, even though they might be really interested in sex, or find the idea of something a turn on, it can be a lot more complicated to make it work in practice. Lots of women take years to figure out how to really make the most of sex, to have an orgasm, sometimes to figure out how to avoid discomfort. So for many women, it's a process and they are somewhat used to the experience of having sex that doesn't quite work. They don't necessarily conclude though that it's bad sex, they may enjoy the mental part, or being with their partner, or being an object of desire, and maybe they also hope that they will be able to improve the experience itself over time.

So when a woman is asked to try something like anal sex, maybe it's not that strange to many that it isn't something that they enjoy right away. They might tend to assume that over time it will get better, or they might find the idea a turn on because it's kinky or they saw it in porn or whatever.

For me the bottom line with this is that it's difficult for a man, even a nice one, to interpret the situation without some clear feed-back - he has probably had partners who had mixed experiences of sex on a lot of occasions, and maybe isn't accustomed to quizzing them about that which I suspect many would not like. With things like anal sex, given that there is so much media telling women they should and will like it, I guess men are going to get the same message. Until a lot of women start telling them that it isn't working for them, they probably won't question that too much. (They also may believe that anal is popular with gay men, so they won't see it as something men never do.)

In terms of the sexual compatibility issue - yeah, I find the idea that if your tastes aren't matched you aren't compatible really depressing. There has been a lot of emphasis for many years on sexual fulfilment as extremely important though, and about zero on the idea that people can be happy and fulfilled without sex even with a normal sex drive. Lots of people know its bollocks of course but it does seem to be the dominant cultural narrative.

Agree with what Goosefoot said.

At one point I probably would have said I enjoyed it but I don't do it anymore. I think most of the enjoyment for me came from it being new/different/taboo/edgy/exciting. That wears off once you've done it a few times.

Let's also be honest - an anus is not the same as a vagina. You can easily, permanently damage yourself doing this and it pisses me off that many men seem to have no regard for that whatsoever when they're pressuring their girlfriends into it.

I love anal sex, as do my friends who have tried it. It's suggested by us or our partners, no pressure, both parties enjoy it. I find it depressing when some women assume ALL women must not like something because they don't..

Sigh. In an ideal world (or in a world ideal enough that people could deal reasonably with issues that aren't ideal) every couple would negotiate the details of sex before they laid a finger on each other. And they might say "This is wonderful, we agree on everything!" or "We've got some problems, but we can make it work" or "We're just too far apart. Goodbye and good luck."

Yes, I'm imagining a comedy skit about a very correct couple who discuss their future relationship to the point where they fall asleep before doing anything. Can people do this without totally killing the mood?

What part of "a third like it, a third are indifferent and a third find it painful" are you struggling with that you interpret this as "all"? Just wondering whether we need to help you out with basic English comprehension skills or basic maths here.

I don't like anal, I've done it quite a few times but have concluded that it's not for me.

I have also pretended to like things when having sex, that I haven't actually liked. I don't do that anymore, I'm vocal about what I do and don't like.

See the link. And then if you like you can let the researchers know if you have any concerns about their study's methodology.

I have. They interviewed 130 people. That's not representative when you consider the UK population is it?

130 men and women aged 16–18 from diverse social backgrounds.

In fact they were 16 - 18 year olds so even less representative than I first thought.

So yes ereshkigal, I do have a problem with their methodology.

I was pressured in to this when 17 and bloody hated it and found it both painful and humiliating. I did it to please my (abusive I now realise) boyfriend at the time. I did not want to be seen as 'boring' and thought he might go elsewhere.

He did anyway and it was no loss.

I find it interesting that if a woman says she likes anal, the assumption is that she enjoys receiving. If a man says it, it’s assumed he’s talking about “giving” it. That’s despite biology arguing that if anything it should be the other way around, seeing as men get pleasure from prostate stimulation. So why do we assume the above? Because of porn and society telling us what our places are, so I don’t see how anyone can argue that there isn’t pressure on women to be ok with being buggered!

What’s the point in asking 16-18 year olds?!

I've never watched porn, DH has never asked for anal sex, ever.
I've suggested it a few times and we've done it and enjoyed it.
Wouldn't say I love it, but from time to time, maybe once every two years I feel like it.

But I do believe in my heart of hearts that women know they have to like sex stuff unquestioningly.

Where does this come from? I find it so depressing that anyone would think like this. People have different likes and dislikes. People should only have sex with partners who are enthusiastically involved. No-one should be pretending.

Totally irrelevant but the heading made me sing:

Let's talk about sex baby,
Let's talk about you and me
Let's talk about all the good things and the bad things that made me
Let's talk aboooout sex
Let's talk about sex

As far as negotiation, in a long term relationship things change so much over time. How would you even know what might be on the table, or off it, in 20 years?

I think part of the problem with this is the idea that it's up to every couple to decide on together without the pressure of expectations. That sounds nice and you tend to think, well, it's private activities so why should social trends have any bearing?

But realistically I don't think it works that way. Even with sex, our basic expectations are set to some extent by what is culturally normative. In one society everything but the missionary position is considered taboo and some people don't even know anything else exists, in another if you aren't willing to give oral sex it might be seen as odd and selfish, in another maybe no one has ever heard of kissing. Anyone who seems to go outside of those expectations much is likely to find a sort of mismatch with what people expect and consider basic.

It's one of those situations like we discussed in the euthanasia thread, where changing social norms has effects on other people whether they like it or not, so maybe we have to think carefully about what gets considered normative.

If one person wants to do something in the bedroom, and the other person doesn’t, then they are not sexually compatible. He shouldn’t pressure her. He should just leave her so they can both find someone they are compatible with.

This is sort of ok but assumes that similar proportions of men/women enjoy the same stuff and I dont think that's true.
The thread has talked a lot about anal but I think maybe fetishes become more relevant here.

So for example, lots of men like their partner to wear lingerie, it turns them on. Do their partners get turned on by wearing it or do they wear it because their man likes it? Probably both but I think more women in the latter category.

What about more extreme fetishes? Should a man who e.g. gets very aroused by wearing tights leave his wife if she doesn't want sex with him in said tights? Should the wife grin and bear it because she loves her husband and want to make him happy?

I agree with op its complicated and I tend to think men are the ones with the more extreme desires, but we have to pretend that's not the case and just as many women have fetishes. Although I couldn't name a single woman I know with a foot fetish, yet I know several men with it

People should only have sex with partners who are enthusiastically involved.

What does this even mean, though? It seems like just another expectation to me. Can't people decide whether they are happy to be involved without meeting some person's definition of enthusiasm?

Can people do this without totally killing the mood?

Yes, by having the conversation over coffee outside the bedroom.

What does this even mean, though?

To be enthusiastically involved, one is actively participating in the sex act because one wishes to do so of one's own volition.

Can't people decide whether they are happy to be involved without meeting some person's definition of enthusiasm?

My partner can decide that he/she is happy to be involved, but I won't accept anything other than continued active participation as evidence that he/she is happy to be involved.

I suffer dissociative episodes related to PTSD and have had partners who are similarly afflicted. I've dissociated mid-sex, started clamping down with vaginismus which fucking hurts and had my (unmissed now ex) bf carry on "because I didn't say stop". I couldn't say stop, I'd dissociated and he knew that this could happen and he didn't stop and check when I stopped responding and went suddenly tight which he was probably taking advantage of for his pleasure at my expense. My standard of consent is this high because people get physically and emotionally hurt if it isn't.

QuentinWinters

I'm not sure what's difficult to understand really.

No one should be pressured into doing something they don't want to do. So, the person who wants to do the thing then gas a decision to make. Can they continue in the relationship knowing that they can't do this thing? If they can happily live without it, then fine. If they can't, then the only answer is to leave isn't it? They can stay and constantly badger their partner until they get them to do what they want.

Why does it matter how many other people do or don't want to do whatever it is?