Marks and Spencer have fallen, part III; we’re gonna need a bigger boat

[MrsSnippyPants]

Fresh thread in case part 2 fills up overnight.
I am yet to receive a reply to my third email, have been furiously tweeting, and as am now pursuing the options available to me as a shareholder.
Still crossing fingers for John Lewis!

Aye Mark’s Suspenders. I wonder how good your appropriate action will be...

Appropriate my arse.

I am bloody annoyed about Bravissimo as I actually need new bras and it's hard to find ones for my shape (small back and large front).

TheABC I buy bras from here, as suggested by another mumsnetter to whom I am eternally grateful. www.ewa-michalak.pl/eng_m_BRAS_BM-Bras-220.html
I am a 28 back in UK bras, around a GG/H cup. I wear a 30GG in Ewa as the back is small enough, (a 28 is made but by special order so not returnable) and fits like a UK 28.
These are a much more flattering shape on me the Freya etc.

Meanwhile some poor soul will be trying to manoeuvre a moob into
a g cup and trying to ignore the other chubby thing pressing into her leg
That's gross, and obviously true which makes it grosser if that's even a word.
Feel for the women who have to do this shit to keep jobs.
I suspect everything will be bought online soon. And my blacklight is on order, everything I buy is going to be tested and sent straight back before I even try it on if necessary.

I was in a retail park today picking up sports stuff for child normally I would have mooched round M&S and probably picked up an new top or something for work and spend £50 in the food hall.

Not today. Not ever again.

I went into my local M&S this afternoon to speak to someone on the lingerie fitting room about their policy. When I arrived there was no one at the desk but I could hear the assistant was helping a customer with a bra fitting. When she finally came out, I asked her whether men were allowed in there because I'd read online that this is their policy now. She said that if a man approached that changing room, he would be redirected to the one by the men's department. I pointed out that this was different to the official policy and that there wasn't always a member of staff in attendance, like today and that a man could be in the fitting room already before I arrived. She agreed and said it was a grey area and that you have to be careful what you say ( I think she meant about sexual politics and not M&S policy). I sympathised that it was down to staff like her to decide how to deal with a man dressed in women's clothes.

She asked if I would like to speak to the store manager (a woman) who turned out to be unavailable. However, the manager of the departments upstairs (a woman in her 20's) came along, shortly followed by her manager (a woman in her 40's). To begin with they trotted out the party line that as a retailer they had come under pressure to keep up with the changing times and that they were one of the last to do so. I pointed out following the example of others didn't make it right and that it was possible to be inclusive by offering a third changing facility for those not comfortable in the Men's or Women's without alienating their core customer base. Then they gave a different version of the policy - if a man wanted to use the changing room and there were women already in there, they would ask the women if they minded a man coming in. If there was no one in there already, a man could just go in. I asked how I would know if there was a man in there if I arrived after him and they said I should ask a member of staff to find out for me!

They said that there had't been any incidents to date because they would know about them for sure but I said it wasn't good enough for M&S to act after the event. I told them that DD had already been a victim of voyeurism in another store's mixed changing room (which wasn't labelled as such) with locking cubicle doors and high partition walls like theirs and they were horrified. I stressed that I was uncomfortable undressing in an area where they might be men and that I wouldn't be spending any money with M&S unless the policy was changed. The younger woman said she was sorry and that she wanted me to have the best shopping experience. We discussed it for over 20 minutes and gradually they admitted that they had their own views on it but that they were unable to speak out against company policy. The more senior Manager said she would pass on my comments but even she wasn't sure whether they would go beyond the Store Manager. They were also unimpressed that the concerns in my emails to HQ hadn't been properly addressed. They recommended contacting Customer Services by phone and asking to speak to the highest person and to just keep up the pressure.

Thanks for that Coatandhat. Really interesting but depressing.

What's interesting is that, clearly, the shop floor staff are either uninformed of this policy or very unhappy with it. So M&S are not only ignoring their customers, they are shitting all over the very staff they have tasked with implementing this crap.

Which, as far as I'm concerned, is double the reason to avoid the nasty bastards.

Good to have those conversations though Coatandhat. It might initiate discussions amongst the staff.

There's an M&S right next to my work and every day for the past fortnight I have walked past it to get my lunch elsewhere. I'm saving loads of money and finding all sorts of nice places.

But having read @Coatandhat I'm wondering if I should go in and talk to staff instead.

@DurtySarf - Do go and speak to them! I actually felt a bit nervous beforehand and like I was going to fraternise with the enemy but the staff were really nice and once we were talking, it all just flowed They need to know that we are not going to just take it lying down.

It's quite incredible coatandhat . Not only have M & S pissed off the majority of their women customer base but they have put their female staff into an impossible and at times, dangerous and degrading position. Yet they don't give a fuck?! Can it really be that all that matters to them are the rainbow glitter awards from dodgy charities?
This really isn't the business that I and my family have supported for decades.

The staff member I spoke to kept saying they weren't allowed to 'discriminate'; that's clearly what they'd been told. She also admitted her female colleagues weren't keen when a transwomen was allowed to use the female staff changing room, but they couldn't complain because that would be 'discrimination'.

Bullied into submission by M&S management it seems.

Bullying is an accurate word TimeLady We know that women are being bullied out of our sex based rights, sport, our language and our safe spaces. From #nodebate to all the accusations of TERF and transphobia. It's just a shock when you see companies like M & S adopting that same bullying approach.

That's why hell will freeze over before I start shopping with them again until they reverse their choice to centre the demands of men.

The staff member I spoke to kept saying they weren't allowed to 'discriminate'; that's clearly what they'd been told.

Important to keep pointing out that they are discriminating. Just against women of minority faiths and cultures, against women who have been harmed and traumatised by male violence, against women with some disabilities, and against women who just plain demand privacy and dignity. Those women are excluded and discriminated against, actually, by law, ie with a case, because they are being treated less favourably by the store than other women without those characteristics. Stores are putting themselves in a vulnerable legal position. Fair Play for Women have a page stating all this clearly if you feel like printing it off to share.

Transwomen are not being discriminated against under law when refused entry to single sex spaces. Good practice would be to offer a third space to respect their identity and provide the privacy and dignity of not changing in the male sex space.

This is about excluding some female people from any provision at all in order to offer some male people a choice . There is no way to make that sound non discriminatory or not profoundly sexist.

@YourOpinionIsNoted

What's interesting is that, clearly, the shop floor staff are either uninformed of this policy or very unhappy with it. So M&S are not only ignoring their customers, they are shitting all over the very staff they have tasked with implementing this crap.

Which, as far as I'm concerned, is double the reason to avoid the nasty bastards.

This. This. This.

I'm genuinely shocked with Bravissimo. I've spent quite a lot of money with them over the years but they can fuck off too now.

I'm literally terrified for my young granddaughters. Female spaces will be long gone by the time they are adults.

Michelle your last two paragraphs sum it up very articulately.

That's really interesting to read about your experience Coat I feel quite positive that this policy will be overturned eventually so we should definitely keep up the pressure, it's just what could possibly happen in the meantime and of course by then it would be too late.

Sorry if this has been covered but I note Bravissimo has fallen.

www.thesun.co.uk/news/10388647/lingerie-chain-bravissimo-now-allows-people-who-identify-as-transgender-to-try-on-bras-in-the-changing-rooms/

Ffs

There is going to be nowhere left to shop.

I really do not believe that males of any identity care much about sharing space with other males. Transactivists will after all be sharing with plenty of other males if all spaces become mixed sex. The aim is not to gain a female identified space, but for women to lose it. Otherwise they would be campaigning for a mixed sex space along with the women’s and men’s, as mixed sex is what they will get anyway.

I'm sure you're right SirVix Do we know who has been putting pressure on M&S to go mixed-sex? Have they presented it as an attractive cost-free way to become "inclusive"? Given that the M&S policy is to be reactive - "if any customer was to act inappropriately, the necessary action would be taken" - it would be interesting to know how many people and of which sex have complained that they have been made to feel uncomfortable in M&S changing rooms.

Just reported a Mark's Suspenders Facebook ad as sexually inappropriate. Hadn't seen that category before; I will be making full use of it. Seeing as they have basically relaunched themselves as a fetish shop.

In terms of national chains of that sort surely Ann Summers was sufficient.

(Has never been in one of their shops)

Do we know who has been putting pressure on M&S to go mixed-sex?

Wokesters deciding sales of their Autograph range are so low they’ve rebranded as the Autogynephile range.
Or maybe they believe every £10 spent by males magically transforms into £100 so they don’t want women to shop there anymore.