Marks and Spencer have fallen, part III; we’re gonna need a bigger boat

[MrsSnippyPants]

Fresh thread in case part 2 fills up overnight.
I am yet to receive a reply to my third email, have been furiously tweeting, and as am now pursuing the options available to me as a shareholder.
Still crossing fingers for John Lewis!

^^ Ah yes, the lovely Mx Pip Bunce. 🤢

Doesn't our old mate Pippa Bunce change multiple times a week?

I used to be on Mumsnet years ago and have just re-registered because I am so incensed by the rights of women and girls being eroded all the time.

I present as a rather dowdy middle-aged to elderly woman. Certainly not the sort to select a few expensive M&S garments, then ask at Customer Services for the woman only fitting rooms. And certainly not the sort to drop several hundreds of pounds of clothes on the floor and walk out when told that I may have to share with a penis person. Deary me, surely not.

Not sure of my next move although I like the idea of ordering online and returning it all with a note. I may look dowdy in my well worn coat, but I could manage to spend £1000 or so, given that good old M&S will return it.

I think I'll do a spot of Archie Norman bothering too. Perhaps he'd like the chopped up remains of my Sparks card in a jiffy bag with an acerbic note.

You could hire your chopped up card down an unfinished gusset @AdaFromYorkshire. He would find it quicker.

That's an idea, although I'd have to buy the knickers which would mean spending money there.

What if “someone’s husband” emails in saying they are concerned. Will a man get a different response?

Without being cynical Akire - it is very evident that men get a different response from M & S. Women are not demanding to share changing rooms with men - it is men making those demands and M & S promptly acquiesced to them. Quite unbelievable but as they've doubled down on this, yet another example of male privilege and power.

Anyway - my accounts are all now cancelled with them and even if they take no notice I at least have the satisfaction of no longer supporting a company that displays such open contempt for their women customers.

I'd be prepared to go in the men's changing rooms.
Men would complain.
Men would get listened to.
And that's what pisses me off the most

I'd be prepared to go in the men's changing rooms.
Men would complain.
Men would get listened to.
And that's what pisses me off the most

The very first conversation I had with DH on trans issues was about changing rooms - I was framing it around our DD but he fixated on how uncomfortable he would be with a trans man in his changing rooms. Not that he tries clothes on at M&S but I imagine he'll combust when/if he encounters unisex toilets.

Is there any interest in a massed takeover of the men's changing rooms? One Saturday afternoon before Christmas perhaps. I'd be happy to be "comfortable" in there for quite a while. I'd probably write my Christmas cards and make a few shuffling trying-on-clothes noises from time to time. Unfortunately the first lot of clothes wouldn't fit so I'd have to try another lot, and then a third batch.... If enough people did that it could become quite annoying for the shop 😀

As an aside, if we are boycotting M&S, can we still use the toilets? My local ones are cleaner and nicer than the nearby alternatives.

I'm up for it Ada

Sadly I’m not well enough to do that. I’m just imagining going into the men’s with a bunch of underwear, declaring that you feel happiest trying them on in the men’s. Then maybe taking a strategically time phone call from your friend waiting outside. Talk about how the bra is a bit tight, looks nice on your boobs, need bigger / smaller knickers. Then ring the bell, ask for a different size from the assistant and another size in knickers.

For extra effect you could drape your "wrong size" bras over the top of the cubicle. If there was one near me I'd do it and festoon the men's changing room with big pants and beige bras of the "designed by the same engineers who normally do bridges" type of construction.

(There are some men who'd be delighted to see the place covered in sexy lingerie so let's not give them that.)

Asking the assistant for a different size would be interesting, as the womenswear is often on a different floor

Ah true. Maybe some out of town stores are all on the same level. Mine is. Or would going to a different floor add an extra intricacy? Big beige bras only of course. Maybe even ask the assistant for advice on how to overcome breasts of different sizes...

So yesterday I went to M&S prepared to do my bit. I picked up a couple of jumpers and went to the mens changing room which had a long queue. I dithered at the back of the queue for five minutes while being eyed up nervously by the very young 'Saturday Girl' and then slunk off. Sorry folks i let the side down. I'll try to get my courage up to try again next week.

Here's my email, I'm sharing it because this was actually my experience this weekend and so I wanted to prove that it's not just middle aged women getting arsey, it really does make a difference:

I know you've had many similar emails, but I wanted to add my voice.

I will be boycotting M&S from now on because of your changing room policy. This is actually a massive pain in the backside for me, because my nearest food shop is the M&S Simply Food, and we usually pop in at least once a day for newspapers and top up shopping. We are now using the Co-op and Lidl.

Why do I feel strongly about this? Well I took my thirteen year old daughter for a bra fitting yesterday. She's a 30F, and embarrassed about her figure. She scarcely wanted to go anyway, and would never have stayed for five minutes in a changing room with men next door. So instead I took her to Bravissimo, where she felt safe and secure, and she could take 45 minutes. We spent £120 in there, but it was worth every extra penny of expense for the experience.

I'm not a transphobe. What I am scared of are all the other men who are going to take advantage of the policy in order to get their thrills, which mostly come from undermining women. There is no way of stopping this until someone is assaulted, no way to get rid of the hidden cameras until the are put in, no way of assuaging the nerves of embarrassed teenagers until they have been humiliated. Please can you tell me why the needs and comfort of a small number of trans men are seen to outweigh the needs of women? It's perfectly possible for the store to satisfy both, but it's just that you don't want to.

artisanparsnips your email has made me feel quite emotional, as my elder dd had her first fitting in M&S at 13. There is absolutely no way she would have gone in if it had been mixed sex. The assistant was lovely, very kind and sensitive. She even took bras home to alter herself for dd as there was nothing with a back small enough. I was so grateful to this lovely woman, and the staff in general at my local branch are incredibly helpful and nice.
M&S are treating their customers with distain and their staff appallingly. The knowledge that they have prioritised the desire of some males to change in with with women, over young girls like your dd and mine, while putting shop floor staff in an impossible position, makes me furious.

There is no way of stopping this until someone is assaulted, no way to get rid of the hidden cameras until the are put in, no way of assuaging the nerves of embarrassed teenagers until they have been humiliated. Please can you tell me why the needs and comfort of a small number of trans men are seen to outweigh the needs of women? It's perfectly possible for the store to satisfy both, but it's just that you don't want to.

That's exactly it, isn't it. M&S is saying that oh well, after you have been assaulted, we will deal with it (without even being specific about what this means). But that's not good enough. They are not doing anything to mitigate the risks - they are making it significnatly more likely.

But what about trans women not safe in men's fitting rooms, the TRAs will say? Well, how is inviting men to ALL fitting rooms making them safer? Are the women present supposed to act as police now?

All they are doing is pandering to people like the one mentioned above, who wants to wear a dress every second day.

Parsnips that is a lovely email- I felt quite emotional reading it.

Perhaps I am wrong, but I think men struggle to understand that pubertal changes are significantly more difficult for girls, and require a lot more care and support as they learn how to handle
a) their new shape bodies
b) the societal response to that body

Well done.

I am really angry about the shop staff overall. They are being put in impossible positions with regard to admitting people to changing rooms, What if they have a transwoman they are about to let in and women object. Their jobs may also be at risk if sales go down as they are likely to do so as so many are boycotting.

The woke types at Marks just make these decisions but dont have to live the consequences

To all you woke stores out there.

I sincerely hope you have great insurance. If someone suffers the trauma of an assault in your stores, you will be taken to the cleaners. You can’t turn round and say you weren’t responsible for an individual’s actions because you gave them a safe environment to do it and therefore you enabled them.

We have told you we need safe places, you are carrying on with your wokenicity regardless. Therefore you are responsible.

Take the shame.

I was framing it around our DD but he fixated on how uncomfortable he would be with a trans man in his changing rooms

Hmm, I was talking to DS (first-year at a v woke uni) this weekend. All the loo blocks in his halls are mixed sex/'gender neutral'. Having previously scoffed when I said that DD and I didn't like using mixed loos, he sheepishly admitted that he felt direly embarrassed using them.

I said, 'Yes, really embarrassing, aren't they? Now imagine that PLUS being actually wary of sexual assault or filming, as that's more common in mixed facilities, and...?'

'Yep,' he said. He didn't call me oldfashioned, or XXphobic, or bigoted, or anything (and trust me, we've been there and done that). He just agreed.

We're getting there.

(He did say though that maybe the women students could at least 'make the men' wash their hands. I'll reserve the lecture on women not being everybody's mummy for another time.)

Thanks everyone. I did also write a really nice email to Bravissimo as well, because the fitter who served DD was lovely. I'm so pleased they are an oasis of sanity in all of this sea of idiot.