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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Marks and Spencer have fallen, part III; we’re gonna need a bigger boat

812 replies

MrsSnippyPants · 12/11/2019 00:47

Fresh thread in case part 2 fills up overnight.
I am yet to receive a reply to my third email, have been furiously tweeting, and as am now pursuing the options available to me as a shareholder.
Still crossing fingers for John Lewis!

OP posts:
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27
JumpJockey · 15/11/2019 14:54

Just posting this for posterity in case Kareem gets into trouble and the whole tweet goes away.

Marks and Spencer have fallen, part III; we’re gonna need a bigger boat
Justabaker · 15/11/2019 15:01

I used to buy all my knickers at Victoria's Secret (VS) when I was back in the USA. But I could never buy my bras there because I'm a 36D and they had little to no selection in that size. It was 'too curvy' for them. The message being that I was not a slender androgynous young thing who needed a padded or a push up Wonder Bra thing.

And I had to keep my ass in shape to fit it in those V&S knickers. It's an incentive of a sorts.

I thought, no problem - there is always Rigby & Peller or Bravissimo for bras.

Then I saw that VS has been under fire from investors and activists because their clothes are 'exclusionary' in that THEY DON'T MAKE ANYTHING THAT FITS MEN. And they only have tall skinny models. So what do they do?

They expanded the size range in their knickers and bras (okay sounds good). Then they hire their first not born female model (being careful with language in fear of the mods). And what they comically described as 'plus size'. Seriously, plus size? Have you seen the size of the average American woman? Plus size maybe for the greater Manhattan area plus LA. So now, they are actually making bras that would fit me and knickers that don't require twice a week on the spin bike to stay wearable.

And they announce - that they want to make their clothes .....MORE ACCESSIBLE.

Okay, so a couple of days after I read about this my DH saw a pile of knickers on the floor in front of my closet. He's like 'ooh a lingerie upgrade?'. I said 'keep dreaming buddy. You can boycott Gillette for telling men they are bad dads. I'm boycotting VS because they've found a not born female person who's a better woman than mean'.

www.elle.com/culture/celebrities/a28601304/victoria-secret-first-transgender-model-valentina-sampaio/

Get woke, go broke.

Justabaker · 15/11/2019 15:02

Argh. Learn to proofread.

'better woman than me'.

artisanparsnips · 15/11/2019 15:32

@JumpJockey That reply has just been slipped into her timeline and is going unnoticed. I've retweeted it but if anyone else can do so they probably should.

WaningGibbous · 15/11/2019 16:08

This is not what JL Oxford Street told me when I rang them a few days ago. They said they had a strict policy, men in the men's changing room, women in the women's

If you can no longer define "woman" then you don't have a strict policy at all.

I am also high street homeless as well as politically homeless. I'd cancel DH's JLP vouchers he gets through work but he's just been made redundant due to Brexit so I don't even have to do that.

HumberHellraiser · 15/11/2019 17:22

For FUCKs sake. Furious at this.
I spend a fortune in there.

And what the hell is this copy and paste reply we are all getting with the same wording for M&S and JL? Is it the same Inclusivity Consultant or something?

I reckon though that woke central comm’s have a very different message to the shop staff. Clearly not singing from the same hymn sheet and I bet I know which one sees the real life consequences.

SirVixofVixHall · 15/11/2019 17:30

The same wording is rather creepy isn’t it ? Who is advising them ?

TimeLady · 15/11/2019 18:01

John Lewis is worse than M&S. The cubicles in womenswear and lingerie in the relatively new Leeds store have curtains, not lockable doors, and a convenient stool for standing on so you can pop your camera over the top.

JumpJockey · 15/11/2019 18:09

Emailed JL CEO saying that I wasn’t happy. Got this reply from the ‘Director relations case manager’. Basically, it doesn’t answer the question about where I should go if I feel uncomfortable. Tempted to write and say which female customers they consulted with, certainly not me and I spent £2k with them over the last 12 months.

“Thank you for contacting our Managing Director about your concerns about our policy on changing rooms.

When developing any shop policy, we always consult with relevant stakeholders across the business and, where appropriate, outside of our business.

When it comes to putting policy into practice, as a co-owned business we ensure that all of our Partners understand their responsibilities and exercise their judgement appropriately.

As an inclusive business, our customers are welcome to use whichever fitting room makes them feel the most comfortable.

Regardless of specific policy, if any customer were to act inappropriately, the necessary action would be taken.”

So exactly the same as M&S. If you’re sexually harassed because of our policy change, we’ll deal with it then, but we won’t protect you until then. And leaves the difficult decisions up to the staff on the shop floor.

JumpJockey · 15/11/2019 18:10

It’s really fecking annoying as JL is one of the few places that does clothes for girls who are tall for their age and want to dress still like kids rather than teenagers.

TimeLady · 15/11/2019 18:19

Now then, M&S, why do you feel it's necessary to mention the sex of those who leave reviews on items of lingerie?

John Lewis's website doesn't. And it's either not attracting the attention of male fetishists or it's being much more strictly moderated.

littlecabbage · 15/11/2019 18:26

FFS John Lewis.

CeridwenTheWitch · 15/11/2019 18:31

When they say they 'consulted with stakeholders' I'm left wondering who those stakeholders actually were. I can imagine who, and it wasn't the regular adult human females of this world.

Dangerfloof · 15/11/2019 18:34

This is news to me, to save me much scrolling can someone pretty please give me a jl email so I can vent my anger. Ta.

Coatandhat · 15/11/2019 18:35

I've just been reporting some male reviews of M&S knickers as inappropriate and came across one asking for the gusset to be made wider!! Angry

TipseyTorvey · 15/11/2019 18:42

I'm so disappointed with JL. That's where I buy all my clothes using click and collect. Probably good for me to reign it in spending wise anyway. I'll write to them anyway just to add to the numbers but I feel like only a drop in sales will convince them to find space for those who'd like a non binary changing room. Though I suspect even if they did that the non womb holders would still self id their way into the women's. Sigh.

boatyardblues · 15/11/2019 18:47

I've just been reporting some male reviews of M&S knickers as inappropriate and came across one asking for the gusset to be made wider!!

Stealth boast? 🤮

JumpJockey · 15/11/2019 18:49

I contacted [email protected]

I have to say, I’ve been away from MN for about 8 years as my elder DD is now 10 and I basically hang out with our MN ante-natal discussion group on facebook instead (still about 15 of us regularly in touch Grin) but the feminist chat has pulled me back in. I had no idea how bad things were getting, and with two daughters it’s a scary enough world without all this other crap going on too. Forewarned is forearmed!

HumberHellraiser · 15/11/2019 18:54

putting policy into practice, as a co-owned business we ensure that all of our Partners understand their responsibilities and exercise their judgement appropriately

So you put the policy in place, then tell the partners (your staff in other words) they’d better do as they’re told upholding your slippery-as-shit policy or else [“insert some misrepresentation of Equality Act threat here”]

SirVixofVixHall · 15/11/2019 18:58

Ffs. Why don’t they just make some man shaped scanties and put them in with the boxers..I suppose that wouldn’t give the same frisson for these men though.
Is this partly due to their links with that transvestite org ?

Clymene · 15/11/2019 19:05

I'm so disappointed. I have returned everything to M&S and told them why. I have cancelled my account card.

I don't spend much with M&S generally but I do with JLP. They are my primary credit card and I spend over a grand a month on it. About half of that is in JL or Waitrose. I'm so, so pissed off. Don't they care that their primary source of income must be women like me? Tossers

I read somewhere that Debenhams were still okay. Is that true?

Akire · 15/11/2019 19:10

Inclusion has nothing to do with booting a whole group out to make room for another. Nobody is saying don’t make a new space and see what happens but you can’t just force people to use spaces and think people will just go along with it because “everyone else is doing it”.

Women have said time and time ago we have money to spend just give us some place we can use, if they go under it be on their own heads.

Meanwhile I’ve been looking at Sainsbury’s for Xmas gifts, pjs slippers etc lots of very nice stuff.

SirVixofVixHall · 15/11/2019 19:14

Is this all some cynical ploy to drive women more into shopping online, which has fewer overheads for the company ?

Coatandhat · 15/11/2019 19:20

@boatyardblues TBH I was surprised to see male reviews of these particular knickers - one female reviewer described them as a bit Bridget Jones Smile

Coatandhat · 15/11/2019 19:25

I popped over to the men's underwear department (online!) just to look at the reviews on there and my heart skipped a beat when the first few reviewers were female. Thankfully they were saying things like they wash well and my son finds these comfy. Phew Grin