Marks and Spencer have fallen, part III; we’re gonna need a bigger boat

[MrsSnippyPants]

Fresh thread in case part 2 fills up overnight.
I am yet to receive a reply to my third email, have been furiously tweeting, and as am now pursuing the options available to me as a shareholder.
Still crossing fingers for John Lewis!

Given that men make up such a significant, committed and enthusiastic proportion of their online reviews for lingerie.

Plus the fact that store policy has been overhauled to accommodate men unquestioningly into all changing areas.
Plus their proud and, frankly heartbreakingly-tear- inducing, narrative published about reaching out to help nervous males be fitted for bras.

I’m flabbergasted that M&S are not allowing men to model lingerie on their website! Why are you excluding the poor stigmatised men?

Why not be inclusive and show, (let’s say looking at your current reviews) a middle aged male model, with an average male body, wearing a teen bra?

I simply don’t understand it.

It would be very interesting to see what a shift to using male models (preferably middle aged, since that seems to represent the core customer best) for all their lingerie would have on Christmas sales, as that's when men tend to buy lingerie as gifts rather than for themselves. How many men will want to buy their wife knickers thus advertised?

Just goes to show M&S don’t really welcome the brave and stunning whilst so delicate and feminine. If they did, they would advertise directly to this group with non surgically enhanced, fully intact men wearing women’s lingerie on their website.
Could be seen as transphobic - they clearly like the huge revenue stream generated ( enough to turn away female customers) but not enough to truly stand by their trans customers.

The customers reviewing the lingerie online are registering and listing themselves as male. This is not about gender identities.

The customers reviewing the lingerie online are registering and listing themselves as male. This is not about gender identities.

But it is, under the Stonewall definition of trans.
Admittedly these are probably AGPs who enjoy the shock factor of listing themselves as male on the site, doesn’t mean it’s not about gender identity. M&S have specifically reached out to a trans group in males where a trained bra fitter helped them choose styles.

The gender identity market is being actively targeted and welcomed by M&S. They need to stop being half hearted about their stance.

The customers reviewing the lingerie online are registering and listing themselves as male. This is not about gender identities.

Whilst the customers trying it on in-store claim to be female. (Unless of course M&S regularly see men in men's changing rooms trying on lingerie. Not something I would know about.)

Thing is. Are the men writing reviews doing so because they are exhibitionists, or simply because they want to be helpful to other men who might be interested in how comfortable various styles of womens knickers are on a male physique and how they wash.

Similarly are people who say they are women, though may not immediately be recognised as women, and who want access women's changing rooms in order to try on lingerie, primarily interested in exploring comfort and fit.

M&S obviously believe that the motives of both groups are straight forward and product based. Some women are not so sure.

Oh dear, just received an email from M&S inviting me to take part in an online survey. It would take about five minutes, the email said.

Happy to oblige.

It didn't take five minutes though, more like twenty minutes. It was all those lovely big "open text" boxes wot did it.

I don't care that it was a third party company doing the survey on behalf of M&S. If nothing else, I might have peak-M&Sed someone in that company. Every little helps.

John Lewis has just tweeted a reply to Jean Hatchet saying "Thank you for getting in touch. We were surprised to hear that you were given inconsistent feedback from our Partners on this topic as all shop policy is regularly communicated to Partners working in our shops. As an inclusive business, our policy states that customers are welcome to use whichever fitting room makes them feel most comfortable. As a co-owned business, we empower our Partners to use their own judgement on how this policy should be applied on a case-by-case basis. Regardless of specific policy, if any customer were to act inappropriately, the necessary action would be taken."

Isn't that basically the same as M&S? If I'm male but I feel more 'comfortable' trying on clothes in the women's changing rooms, that's just fine.

www.thesun.co.uk/news/10350754/marks-spencer-slammed-men-underwear-reviews/amp/?__twitter_impression=true

That sounds like a complete cop out. You can’t have a inclusive please use whatever space you want we are open to everyone AND say but staff are able to allow staff to use their own judgement on each case.

So while it sounds like if you try and look female you can come in but if you look like a man we can challenge. But that just makes staff open to being called phobic and or sacked for not keeping to we are inclusive policy. Depending on if it his social media or not.

*hits social media

John Lewis. Arse.
Where can I
A. Try on clothes somewhere single sex.
B. Buy my Christmas presents /school uniforms etc
?

That is shit and disappointing from John Lewis. And denies the feedback given before by John Lewis staff that there had been problems with the self ID in their store that had led to a change of policy. Completely leaves their staff open to abuse and hassle. The online only retailers will be the winners from this, Why should any woman bother going into a store changing room if they are subject to voyeurs, exhibitionists and predatory men. Online only stores are cheaper as dont have to pay for a network. Decision easy to make

Like others on here, why am I not seeing men stuff themselves into a pretty bra and pants set seeing as how it fits their curves so well?

I’d offer to model too in the interests of equality but sadly they’ve more chance of packing their jewels inthe lingerie than I have my exceedingly ample arse and wallopers.

You claim to be all inclusive marks suspenders... c’mon then.

Money where your mouth is please.

I’m sure all your sleb endorsers will be bloody thrilled to see various Colin’s squeezing themselves in ‘their’ clothes and drawers.

Ok. So now M&S is forever associated for me with some grungy kind of sex shop, I suppose I can only wish them and their clients every happiness together. And JL too.

I was fed up and annoyed with the sexism. Now I'm utterly revolted. And increasingly worried that the whole situation now seems to be suggesting that men expressing fetish should be regarded as a normal and every day aspect of transgenderism, and women should just..... accept and co operate with this?

Gosh how interesting, I was looking back to screen shot in case the JL account changed its mind, and it's now been worded differently: "As an inclusive business, our policy states that customers are welcome to use whichever fitting room with which they feel most comfortable. " and the rest of the discussion has been erased - it was previously across three messages, now just one.

No John Lewis nooooooooo.

JL

Is nowhere safe?

This is not what JL Oxford Street told me when I rang them a few days ago. They said they had a strict policy, men in the men's changing room, women in the women's, there was no 'in between'.

Be ashamed JL. Be very ashamed.

The only fucking safe place for women soon will be the kitchen.

Way to put us in our place...

Ive been lamenting massive chains folding and the death of the high street. Although some don’t seem to be helping themselves.

Do you think that staff or rather partners are able to determine local policies.

Even back in the 80s I remember the lingerie department at M&S Marble Arch having lots of men browsing, which I found quite unsettling. In my naivety I noted that many were Arab so assumed they might be buying for their wives. I might draw different conclusions now. Shop floor staff presumably have more knowledge of their customer base. Perhaps in JL Oxford street they will have a policy that allows women to feel comfortable shopping there,. knowing full well that a significant number of women from overseas might walk out if men were using the changing rooms. Whereas staff in other areas are kinder/have not experienced many problems/have a different customer profile. Allowing staff in the store a reasonable degree of discretion seems better than imposing a policy on them. If that is what the JL statement means. In which case it would be a case of informing partners in specific shops of your concerns.

JL in on the act too? Patriarchy at its finest, men supporting men.
I’ll buy less and pay more supporting women who own boutiques then, or switch to online only. Sod them.

Pretty shit for the next generation though; as a teen I lived in TopShop etc, where’s the fun in shopping for girls if you can’t go into town and try on loads of clothes without being perved at?
This is indeed an attempt to put women with boundaries in their designated place and using those without boundaries for men’s titillation. Wankers.

John Lewis. Bollocks. Not only am I politically homeless I am now high street homeless too.

To John Lewis and any other retailers -
I am NOT COMFORTABLE IN A MIXED SEX SPACE WHEN UNDRESSING . So when you say that I can change where I feel “most comfortable “ , what does that mean for me ?
How is it “inclusive “ to exclude every woman or girl who, for any number of reasons, feels uncomfortable in a mixed sex fitting room ?

SingingLily perhaps also mention you will be "spreading the word" locally so that it may have more impact.

The Green Consumer guide emphasied the power of the spending consumer. The festive period could really emphasise this? Let the papers know (as some already have) a massive impact on M&S shame I've always shopped there. Our spending choices as women will hit them hard, I for one will be spreading the word.