Do women have the right to say they feel uncomfortable over a name?

[SarahNade]

I hope this is as safe place to ask this. I am on a discussion on another thread, and it seems many think that a woman has no right to ask not to be addressed by a colloquial term, and if she does ask, she is the one being unreasonable for daring to stick her neck out, she is the one overreacting, for merely asking. Yet the male who went politely asked, gets offended that a woman dares utter her discomfort, and gets abusive with her. So why is it the woman who is 'overreacting' by merely asking not to be called something, but the man is not seen as overreacting by taking offence to her request and getting indignant?

Do women have the right to ask politely not be called something, without being told they are 'overreacting'? Or should women accept being called a term they don't like, shut up and put up with it in case she gets the male in trouble?

Alltheprettyseahorses

I completely agree with you.

The op.was clearly irate with the situation and the driver was bearing the brunt of it. He was trying to sort it out (which isn't his job at all. His job is to tell you of any substitutions and refund you if you don't want them. That's it. It's not his job to make good the substitution). You can see how a "and don't call me love" could be utilised by the op to escalate her argument.

In the situation, 2 people against 1 I can understand why the driver felt he was getting abuse.

Delivery driver's, shop assistants, doctors receptionists and the like aren't whipping boys - they aren't there for annoyed customers to take out their frustrations on.

The op doesn't like being called love. Ok. In the midst of an argument that is getting heated it's probably not the right time to bring it up. The situation needed de escalating not stoking

CN all t people who say that love and duck and pet are commonly used in their area between men who don’t know each other please confirm that they would recommend a tourist to use those terms in the pub? That they would tell them to order a pint by saying “Pint of Theakstons, please love, and one for yourself” to a male bartender.

Driechdrizzle

I think you are conflating issues by constantly referencing what happened to you. In your instance your boss was clearly being sexist and was in the wrong, yes. That doesn't mean though that every other time "love" is used that person is being sexist.

And I think you are being disingenuous towards the op on the ASDA thread. Many posters on there formed the same opinion - that the op was clearly annoyed and was ramping up the situation. To try and claim that she was cool as a cucumber and perfectly polite is quite unbelievable.

Whats the name???

BertrandRussell

Can you explain if it's ok for women to use "love" when addressing other women and men?

I don't mind being called love, darling sweetie, beautiful... whatever as long as its not done in a leering or aggressive manner!

And its not always men who call me these names.

I think its always about context.

“ Can you explain if it's ok for women to use "love" when addressing other women and men?”
Well, it would probably be inappropriate to call your boss “love”. And it can sound patronising sometimes. And I personally don’t care for it much from people I don’t know. And I think that if somebody doesn’t like it they shouldn’t be called it. But broadly, yes.

Thing is, BertrandRussell, they're not quite unknown to each other even if they've never met before. The men calling each other love recognise they're part of the same community.

I call people of both sexes love all the time (I'm female)

Sometimes people just say stuff automatically though don't they?

I said "bye Love" to a school dad i'd been talking to the other day & he said "bye love you" 😂 then looked like he hadn't meant to say that & walked off - i think it was just his brain responding to the word love - anyway it made me laugh.

Also I walked into my DC's music school the other day and gave his teacher a kiss on each cheek! Thankfully he just went along with it 🤣

I've personally not heard men calling each other love so can't comment on that (that's not to say they don't do it) but I absolutely have heard men call each other "me duck".

Would it be ok for a male tourist to call a local man "me duck" as Bertrand asked? I don't know. I guess so but I also think it might sound very much like a piss take. I wouldn't say "me duck" to anyone because I would feel very conscious that I was coming across as laughing at the local dialect. That might well just be me though.

I think you've hit the nail on the head tbh Hearhoovesthinkzebras.

There was an easily identifiable problem: no chicken as ordered. Instead of thinking fuxake and getting on with it like most of us would, the OP escalated the situation, even bringing backup, and just wanted to take it out on the delivery driver aka innocent party. Because he was there. Later on, she may have felt some stirrings of guilt for the pile-on (because if, as stated upthread, no decent man gets angry then how much more does that apply to a decent woman whose behaviour is more proscribed?). So she takes to petty gripes AIBU to validate her behaviour, picking out some irrelevant part of the story to make herself look good and justify her feelings and actions but having to put in enough background detail to give a snifter of what may have happened. She is both YANBU and YABU here: the missing item is inconvenient whether she wouldn't have the money for a replacement or just couldn't be arsed to go to the shops for one. But the treatment given to the placatory driver is unacceptable. The further irrelevant escalation to here renders it almost Shakespearian it is glorious, dramatic awfulness. The money's probably refunded by now. Just buy another chicken. Job done.

In the case of the delivery driver, I'd imagine he used 'love' because it's a generic friendly term that would guard against embarrassment of forgetting the name of his 34th drop of the day out of 67 during their 2 minute encounter while he's worrying about getting to the next customer in time

I'm awestruck at the imaginative powers of those defending the driver. I assume he has a list of names and addresses.

Even when love is used in a sexist way.i don't think it's really sexism that is the problem. I think "love" in those situations is being used in a demeaning way, as a put down and it's often used by women in exactly the same way

Yes, absolutely. "Mate" can be used in the same way. There is or used to be an FWR poster who regularly littered her replies to specific posters with "mate". It was definitely intended as a put down.

Some really interesting opinions and experiences so far and I still think it's a totally subjective.

1.Personally I feel I can tell if someone is using such labels without knowing that it could upset someone or might possibly the term as offensive or belittling.

1. I also feel I can tell if someone is using it in a way that shows they do see the recipient as beneath some and the name is therefore a mark of superiority, a comment that tracks of dismissiveness and revealing they don't see the recipient as equal.

It's totally "fair" in either of these cases to address the person using the word in a way you find offensive. Of course- one should always address anything that makes them uncomfortable.

And IMO in example 1 above, confrontations is sometimes unnecessary (talk about pet names not about racial descriptions that come from a place of ignorance that would undoubtedly offend most people.They would be mortified to think they had upset someone.

In both scenario 1 and 2, I think the person who used the word that upset someone and this is as flagged, they should respond with good grace and stop using the word when communicating with the person who had a problem with it.

It's really difficult to give thoughts on a specific example (like the delivery one) because tone is impossible to judge. We don't know how polite either party was and only have one side of the account to go on.

Dunno about you, CarolCutrere, but I've often forgotten the name of someone I've just been introduced to before the end of the conversation. People need time to learn names when in new jobs for example. And from 15 years' experience in the delivery and logistics trade, the customer isn't Mrs Whatnot, she's No 11 Whatever Road before you go to 95 Somewhereelse Avenue 12 mins drive away with the lights at that box junction which you should just make cos if this call is quick you've got 16 mins to get there before you're late for their delivery slot. Now that may not be your problem but the unavailable chicken isn't the delivery driver's problem either.

So. Pub in Leeds/Sheffield/Bradford. Perfectly fine for a man to go in and say to the man behind the bar “Pint of Theakstons, please, love”. Then to wander over to another guy watching the football and say “Hi, love- what’s the score?”

I think the person who used the word that upset someone and this is as flagged, they should respond with good grace and stop using the word when communicating with the person who had a problem with it Fair point - but did the delivery driver keep calling her 'love' after she told him to stop? I don't think I've seen that to be the case.

@Alltheprettyseahorses

Fair point - but did the delivery driver keep calling her 'love' after she told him to stop? I don't think I've seen that to be the case.

That's my point I think, if he specifically didn't stop then he was being a dick.

I was just trying to explain that while in that example it may well have been him in the wrong, we can't use it as a barometer for whether it the use of the word like "love" is intrinsically negative and should always be confronted as a sexist term.

I personally don't think that it is used with malice / superiority the majority of the time. When it is then it absolutely should be called out, I was just trying to explain that it's important for a response to take into account the context in which it was used.

Just personally (and it's totally individual obviously) if a delivery driver said here you are love / sorry love I would take no offence at all.

Whereas if a boss said can you get this done love / thanks for that love then I would say I'm not your love and expect him to not use it again, if he did then I would confront him again.

I think context is hugely important in this discussion. But the fact remains that whether other people agree with confronting something in a specific situation or not, it's anyone's right to flag something that makes them uncomfortable, of course.

So. Pub in Leeds/Sheffield/Bradford. Perfectly fine for a man to go in and say to the man behind the bar “Pint of Theakstons, please, love”. Then to wander over to another guy watching the football and say “Hi, love- what’s the score?”

I think you have to ask people from those areas the rules around how and when it's used. Maybe it's viewed as "outsiders" using it as being a piss take? Who knows?

I'm from the east end of London. Older generations of my family speak with cockney accents. If someone I didn't know came up to me and started speaking like it I would think they are taking the piss and would be offended. Just because people that I recognise as being like me can do.it doesn't mean everyone can.

Alltheprettyseahorses

He was delivering a box of groceries to a specific address. There was no reason for him to have to use her name beyond identifying it was the order for "Smith- 25 X Street. There was no need to engage in any conversation which involved the repetition of her name.

Your first imaginative frolic said he was using love as a means of not having to remember names. Your re-write is now that the list would only have the street address- not names (which I very much doubt given that deliveries are made to flats where the name and address is needed)

Pub in Leeds/Sheffield/Bradford. Perfectly fine for a man to go in and say to the man behind the bar “Pint of Theakstons, please, love”. Then to wander over to another guy watching the football and say “Hi, love- what’s the score?”

Sheffield - no idea.

Leeds/Bradford - not a usual occurance.

which I very much doubt given that deliveries are made to flats where the name and address is needed)

This is all getting a bit silly now. Why would they need a name just because they are delivering to a block of flats? Delivery note says flat 2A, 25 Accacia Drive ie an address is enough whether it's a house or a flat.

Regardless, it just doesn't matter. He's a delivery driver with a very limited amount of time to make a delivery before moving on. They are timed and tracked. He didn't have time to find out her name, remember her name, use her name, discuss the merits/costs of chicken Vs duck, try to find a spare chicken and she was in the wrong for trying to get him to do it. He had to deliver her groceries and go. Any other problems she needed to speak to customer services about. That's the downfall of on line shopping.

This is all getting a bit silly now. Why would they need a name just because they are delivering to a block of flats? Delivery note says flat 2A, 25 Accacia Drive ie an address is enough whether it's a house or a flat

The silliness is in relation to the works of fiction being written to justify his use of love. Alltheprettyseahorses was suggesting he used "love" as an aid to having to remember her name.

But she might be right. I don't know if the drivers have the customers name. They may well just be given the address. It doesn't assist them really to have the customers name does it? All they need is the address so maybe that is all they have. I can't remember what is on the paperwork that comes with the order. I've got a feeling it is just the address but even that is inside one of the bags so it still doesn't mean that the driver has my name. His paperwork may well only list out the addresses.

Really, though, who knows? He might have the names but just cannot remember them when he gets a quick glance at it as he's dropping off the shopping so maybe it is a way to avoid using the wrong name? Who knows?

Perhaps in future he should refer to people as thingymebob. Not sexist. Not gendered.

It's ridiculous to suggest that he was using love as a substitute for her name. He used it repeatedly.
Would he really say 'oh, isn't that right Mrs Smith... sorry, Mrs Smith, I'll check the order... I'll check the van, Mrs Smith... can't find it, Mrs Smith... d TXon't you want the duck, Mrs Smith'.
Whether it was used as a cheery colloquialism or a snidey put down, or both, it was unnecessary. He didn't have to call her anything.

It's ridiculous to suggest that he was using love as a substitute for her name. He used it repeatedly

Of course it is. It's just another example of the creative writing being used on here to excuse him. As you say having identified he was at the correct address he didn't need to call her anything.