Do women have the right to say they feel uncomfortable over a name?

[SarahNade]

I hope this is as safe place to ask this. I am on a discussion on another thread, and it seems many think that a woman has no right to ask not to be addressed by a colloquial term, and if she does ask, she is the one being unreasonable for daring to stick her neck out, she is the one overreacting, for merely asking. Yet the male who went politely asked, gets offended that a woman dares utter her discomfort, and gets abusive with her. So why is it the woman who is 'overreacting' by merely asking not to be called something, but the man is not seen as overreacting by taking offence to her request and getting indignant?

Do women have the right to ask politely not be called something, without being told they are 'overreacting'? Or should women accept being called a term they don't like, shut up and put up with it in case she gets the male in trouble?

It does depend. A fleeting encounter lasting a few seconds and a one-off use of 'love' from a delivery guy or a bus driver - I'm probably not going to say anything. A builder who's in my house for several days and says it a lot, not so much

Absolutely yes. And in the situation being discussed, where a customer was making a valid complaint, the continued use of "local endearments" becomes inappropriate.

And for what it is worth, colloquial usage does not void inherently sexist language's sexism. IDGAF if all the people say something and think it is ok 'because everybody says it' as the bandwagon doesn't mute the sexism

That is a fair point.

I'm sorry you lost your job, dreichdrizzle. You were right and shouldn't have to be 'kind' in that situation. He certainly wasn't.
Well done on saying something as a teenager. I wish I'd done it years ago. I was much older in my situation and very lucky I found a way of avoiding dealing with the guy afterwards.

Sorry, Driechdrizzle. I misspelt your name. It's late.

Thank you Critical. I think you may be the first person who has ever sympathised with me over it. At the time it was just something I was expected to put up with.

Three women in the past few days have reported men getting angry/aggressive/retaliatory/vindictive when we've made simple polite requests for them not to use sexist language towards us. This is actually typical of what men do to women when we quite reasonably stand up for ourselves - they try to punish us.

The I don't mind it/be kind crowd have very little to say about our experiences (unless it's telling a woman to shut up). They've clearly fully internalised the message that women should not rock the patriarchal boat, lest the man's reaction to their assertiveness is worse than the original offense. Women know at some level how much men will punish them for stepping out of line, that's the real reason why they put up with it, and tell other women to do the same.

Hmmm, it's me that's misspelt dreich!

I did notice your comments about your job Dreichdrizzle and it should not have happened to you. You should not have been expected to put up with being called "hun" (I think that what it was, apologies , it was a while back)

However given the unmitigated nonsense you are spouting on the White Feminism thread my sympathy is limited.

First, a working class person cannot afford to pay home delivery fees for groceries and the OP could, ergo she is above working class. A delivery driver makes minimum wage, ergo he is working class. Therefore, the OP is higher class than the delivery driver

This isn't how the class system works.

A middle class person could have a minimum wage job. Supermarket deliberately is affordable to the working classes. The single £7.99 a month works out cheaper than a weekly bus trip at £5 a go so a lot of people on benefits use the delivery service too.

I haven't read the thread that this one is about but I've seen people say "love" is a normal and common term is some parts of the uk. I'm from the north east and love and pet are used a lot but that doesn't mean they aren't used in a sexist arsehole type way at times too.

My Dad for example, he never ever called men "love" and only ever called women it when disagreeing or annoyed with them. In a "you're wrong pet!" Or a "dont piss me off love" type way. Very very different to the man two doors up who passes me with a warm smile and a "good morning pet, how's the family?"

Both men from the north east using the word very differently.

Supermarket delivery* not deliberately.

The app is weird and isn't displaying all of the white box so I can't see the first twenty lines or so as I'm typing. Apologies if there's other typos.

Given that most Britons buy most of their food from supermarkets, it's a small step from Meades' point to the conclusion thatour supermarkets are class-stratified. Verdict Research, for instance, has found that Waitrose has the highest proportion of shoppers from the professional social classes A and B (47%), followed by Sainsbury's (34%), Marks & Spencer (22%), Tesco (21%) and Safeway (17%).

How old is that research? Safeway was bought out by Morrison about 15 years ago.

Do you mean in general or just when it comes to "love"? Because I can think of some words that someone might use innocently,unaware of the context and background of it , and offend many many people.

I suppose I mean it in the kinds of instances that I mentioned in the other parts of that post. Things that are basically conventional friendly/well meant terms of address, that lots of people don't mind, where it is really a particularity of my preference that is at issue. It's difficult to define just what falls into that category because it's so variable by region and also depends on the nature of the interaction.

But there are all kinds of things that aren't my preference that people do all around me all the time. If I went around correcting other people's words that I don't like I'd be kind of an arse.

“ Because I can think of some words that someone might use innocently,unaware of the context and background of it , and offend many many people.”

What sort of words?

Ah, it appears my information in home delivery of groceries is out of date. I apologise. It means my thinking when I commented on saying the OP was probably higher class than the delivery driver was based on too old information. So, yes, I made a faulty presumption. I see that now.
I do understand that class is not just about income but social status as well.
Thank you everyone for your comments.

I still do not consider “love” to be sexist language or that it was definitely used by the delivery driver in a sexist fashion. It might have been, but I still think it unlikely. The OP of that thread was complaining to him about a substitution of a duck for a chicken which is done by packers, and not a fault of the driver. She should have decided if she wanted to accept or reject the duck and if upset, take up her complaint with the customer service office. The driver only delivers orders. He was being extra nice to humour her by looking for a chicken which he knew would not be there. Delaying his rounds.
She was then berating him about needing a roast for Sunday like it’s his problem to solve. After that, she criticised his use of “love” which I think was the straw that broke the camels back. I don’t think him saying she was verbally abusing him was only about her request to stop using “love”, I think it was also her “firm tone” in which she berated him for the missing chicken, and her snarky comments about a roast for Sunday. She knew it was not his fault or anything he could have helped or done to correct on the spot, so it’s really unfair for her to have taken out her disappointment over a substitution on the delivery driver in the first place.

Isn't this thread meant to be about the question of the title not a TAAT? Please don't turn it into one

The question is if it makes you feel uncomfortable and belittled are you rude to mention it , or is it rude to ignore a request to avoid the term

And (just in case someone has claimed otherwise) men in Yorkshire do not routinely call each other love.

They do in Sheffield, I've seen them do it on more occasions than I can count. I saw it happen twice on Friday.

I think saying men don't call other men 'love' is a red herring, especially as 'love' will be replaced by 'lad', 'mate', 'cocker' or similar. There's a lot of debate about pronouns on here and the general consensus is they are sex-based, as is the case of word use here. I also think a lot of the sneering at 'love' is class based and fails to take into account the cooperation traditionally needed by the working classes, especially the poorest, where markers of friendliness were essential in building community support.

In the case of the delivery driver, I'd imagine he used 'love' because it's a generic friendly term that would guard against embarrassment of forgetting the name of his 34th drop of the day out of 67 during their 2 minute encounter while he's worrying about getting to the next customer in time. The OP of that thread just came across as snooty and I'm not surprised he felt abused when he was clearly being berated by her and her husband for something that wasn't his fault, as shown in her account despite it obviously being written to show the OP in a good light because of course people want to portray themselves as being right. But even then problems are clear. There will have been more to it because delivery drivers don't usually worry about looking for a missing item do they? Nor are 2 people needed to spend several minutes telling off the driver either. Being called 'love' wasn't the problem, it was just another way to snipe at him to take out frustrations about a really insignificant problem.

(just an aside, but what was that rubbish way upthread about decent men never getting angry as if they're robots rather than human beings? Do decent women never get angry either? Is anger about anything not allowed?)

There are parts of the country where men use love to each other. It doesn’t negate the sexist intention of love elsewhere in the country.

I find it fascinating that the conversation remains at this circular point - is it sexist, isn’t it sexist - when we have some clear examples of what happens when women assert themselves about it, and the very negative reactions of men, who have clearly awarded themselves the right to call women things like love, hun and darling and don’t want to stop.

I asked my boss not to call me darling as I didn’t like it seahorses, and he hounded me out of my job. What do you think of his behaviour? Was I right to ask?

Of course you were, Driechdrizzle. There are rather different dynamics though when someone is your boss in and should know your name but is such a shithead he doesn't bother which is demeaning and belittling and when there's a one-off 5 minute delivery where the real problem is frustration over a missing chicken, the OP just wanted to lash out any way she could.

There are parts of the country where men use love to each other. It doesn’t negate the sexist intention of love elsewhere in the country.

Well isn't that the very point a lot of us have been making - whether it is sexist or not depends on internet and context.

Sometimes the term love will be used in a sexist way. Sometimes it won't be.

People can be sexist using all sorts of words. Do you think banning "love" will.end sexism?

Even when love is used in a sexist way.i don't think it's really sexism that is the problem. I think "love" in those situations is being used in a demeaning way, as a put down and it's often used by women in exactly the same way. So.I think that in any instance where you think that someone is demeaning you or insulting you then you should be able to say something. That becomes a whole other problem though because it depends on the situation that you are in at the time as to whether it is acceptable for you to complain eg I wouldn't last long in my job if I decided to tell every customer that called me love, dear or even uses my name as a way.of showing me that I am lower status than them, that I want them to stop.

For me it comes down to is the term "love" being used as a put down but is it also part of a bigger picture between you and the person saying it? So if it's a co worker doing it and they're also exhibiting other sexist or bullying behaviour towards you then that's one thing. A one off interaction between you and a stranger a different situation all together.

‘Lash out’

She said ‘please don’t call me love’

It was him that lashed out when he claimed she was being abusive.

My boss was calling me darling because he was being misogynist. The problem wasn’t him not knowing my name, he was reminding me I was female and that as a man he could treat me like that. His rage was the rage of misogynists when they are called out.

Yeah, that wasn't all she did. It wasn't even all she said she did. Motivation matters - in her case too. Anyone who's ever had a delivery can spot there's something really off about the fella looking for a missing item that wouldn't have been there anyway cos it was substituted on the delivery note. He was getting such an earful that he might take a chicken from another order just to make it stop. Or does his perception of being abused (by 2 people remember) not count?

“ People can be sexist using all sorts of words. Do you think banning "love" will.end sexism?”

She didn’t give him an earful. She said she pointed out the duck was higher value to be honest. You’re reading stuff that wasn’t there.

And you haven’t commented on the fact that my boss was being misogynist when he called me darling. Claiming it was my boss couldn’t be bothered to use my name is gaslighting. That’s not what happened. You could also comment on Critical’s colleague who flew into a rage when she asked not to be called hun.