It’s official; Marks and Spencer have fallen, the sequel.......

[MrsSnippyPants]

First thread getting full and and I continue to be interested in responses received to people’s emails and store visits.

As has been said, the accessible fitting rooms have curtained access; this is confirmed on the M&S website:

eg in the York Monks Cross Lingerie fitting rooms

www.accessable.co.uk/marks-and-spencer/access-guides/marks-and-spencer-vangarde-monks-cross#e8cbfa8c-aa20-fb4d-a3de-d3f32727f8e7

There are 9 fitting rooms in total within Lingerie, 1 of which is an accessible fitting room.
…..
There is a curtain opening to access the accessible fitting room(s).

I don't see how this is not discriminatory against women who need to use that accessible space as they are not afforded the same degree of privacy as everyone else now that it is designated as a mixed space.

And what's to stop males using those curtained areas and 'forgetting' to close the curtains properly? By all accounts that already happens in mixed sex toilets when they leave the cubicle door open

Does anyone know what Next's policy is?

Don't know who's allowed in but Next clearly has curtains (as do several others)

www.thesun.co.uk/fabulous/5592578/selfie-10-high-street-changing-rooms-lighting-change-look/

Does anyone know what Next's policy is?

I emailed them a couple of days ago to ask this, and am still waiting for a reply. I think it is worth all of us emailing to ask, so that they can see the strength of feeling before formulating their reply.

Whether you can ensure the privacy and safety of all users depends greatly on the whole set up, not just the cubicles. Eg Can conversations be heard in the next cubicle ? Are all cubicles checked for cameras prior to each use ? Is the fitting room area properly staffed by several people ?
If the cubicles are sound-proofed but not staffed, then a man could hide behind the door, lock it once a women was inside, and she would not be heard. Also a woman might need help , be unwell etc. I feel that privacy by its essence means not being overheard by people of the opposite sex , and it is impossible to do that safely, unless you exclude that sex.
I am really, really sick of having to justify why I don’t want to share with men though. NO should be enough.

If I'd thought that there might be a man lurking nearby during my first bra fitting, having a wank at the discussion I was having with the fitter, wild bloody horses couldn't have dragged me in there.

i don't think that M&S can claim they are maintaining single-sex changing areas, Twatticus, if they are using a 'unisex lockable cubicle' argument in defence of its new policy. The new policy allows men into women's changing areas using a 'comfortable' criterion, rather than a criterion laid down in the Equality Act 2010.

So M&S need to be honest and say ALL its changing rooms including lingerie are now unisex / mixed sex.

But they won't.

Funny that.

I worked in M&S as a student. I was in the food hall. Most nights, one of the local addicts would breeze in about ten minutes before closing, walk up to the steaks, fill a bag, and walk back out. They would then sell said steaks in the pub for £1 a piece.

Most of us on shift were students or older women. The management would instruct us to confront these men, but none of us had the courage to (and the managers were never around to check). Because it was right before closing, we never bothered with the police.

Anyway, we kept asking for a security guard, but were repeatedly told to deal with the issue ourselves. The company didn't care about our safety.

I was being paid £6.52 an hour and expected to confront these men. Well fuck you M&S, I never did.

I wonder if that was just one rational employee going off piste

Probably an employee who doesn't read their emails so didn't get the memo 🤣 I've worked with plenty of them!

Sadly suspect you're right, Raindrops

The whole 'we can't now sort out males and females, that genie's out of the bottle so we give up' thing just means that female people who won't or can't tolerate undressing or being vulnerable around male born people - and who have a need to protect children who are with them - will just be excluded from using those spaces. It will disproportionately affect vulnerable and minority groups of female people. It will, as the Target effect of an increase in sexual harassment and assault starts to bite, discourage more and more female people from using those spaces.

So either this is the beginning of the end of changing rooms full stop - although that doesn't solve the hospital wards, refuges, etc - or this is where everything moves to single use, wholly closed rooms and no communal spaces at all.

However this will still not solve the sexual and antisocial behaviour of some men (some men, please note the lack of generalisation here, this is evidenced stuff HQ) such as the individual on Twitter posting gleefully about wanking on the floor of cubicles and leaving semen stains on women's clothing that said individual then likes to return to the peg for women to unknowingly come into contact with. Or the issues of women supposed to use toilets where floor and toilet seat are covered in urine.

It comes back again and again to the need for the govt to clearly separate sex and gender. Fully supportive policy for gender identity to be met and supported in all situations, provision available in all circumstances, in addition to single sex spaces which can be used only by people of that biological sex. And support for all agencies and the general public to be fully aware of their right to designate and protect a space or service as single sex.

Great post Michelle

No response to my second email yet.

Michelle great post

noted

I dont think there will be.

Everyone has asked very reasonable questions and they cant answer them

There is not one thing their inclusivity template email actually answers. Especially given that they have repeatedly been told how the are excluding majority of women.

Theres bugger all they can say so we will be ignored

Marks and Spencer have announced a drop in profits this morning.

Shame.

I thought those figures went back a few months? This can’t help...

Business recovery plan! Step one - don't tell your core customers to go fuck themselves, as this tends to offend.

Let me get my pen...
Rule 2 - don’t design clothes blindfolded?

The profits just announced are not to do with this issue but alienating their target market isn't going to help their profits improve.

And therefore step 3, sack whoever designed that pink dress.

The lampshade one? Wasn’t that a Halloween ‘First lady’ costume?

You know silly “this might be hot” tag on a hot drink you have got. Surely that’s all to state obvious and take away blame incase you do hurt yourselves. How can shops get around this when not clearly labelling unisex spaces?

I know previous social norms covered having labels but they don’t any more. Just a thought.

I can't get over the fact that they announced this right before Christmas. Maybe they're relying on that being the time when nobody tries anything on as they're buying for other people? And have forgotten who exactly will be doing most of the buying.

The whole 'we can't now sort out males and females, that genie's out of the bottle so we give up' thing just means that female people who won't or can't tolerate undressing or being vulnerable around male born people - and who have a need to protect children who are with them - will just be excluded from using those spaces

And this is the irony about ‘inclusivity’: it excludes women. Not just vulnerable, sensitive, religious, feminist women - any woman who doesn’t want to try on underwear with men, and wants to protect her teenage daughters from that too.

BBC report on M&S 17% drop in profits

www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-50313770