It’s official; Marks and Spencer have fallen, the sequel.......

[MrsSnippyPants]

First thread getting full and and I continue to be interested in responses received to people’s emails and store visits.

Now, I like that response from JL, but I'm a bit dubious about it. Because in our local branch there is a changing room located in a corner of the shop floor, on the same floor as the menswear. Only one changing room on this floor, and no ladieswear on this floor.

However, the customer Click & Collect is also on this floor and I have on many occasions picked up an order and gone straight to this changing room to try on the stuff. I have never been questioned nor denied access to this presumed men's changing room, but I will stop using it in future even though it is more convenient. Especially if they are keen to uphold single sex changing rooms. Well done to JL for saying (and hopefully doing) so.

Why did the poll thread get deleted? I was part way through reading it and the deletion message said to protect OP privacy, even though it's only a poll? Did I miss something?

IfJL are upholding single sex changing rooms it would be a good idea to thank them and highlight the importance as they are probably about to be piled on by TRAs

I asked John Lewis on Friday if they offer female only changing facilities. Its been punted to Head Office. No response to date.

Name change fail, I think, with repercussions IRL.

You didn’t miss any anything. someone prob didn’t like getting it all their own way.

Someone had complained of being bullied i can only assume because others had pointed out they were wrong to say Lingerie remained single sex.

Amazing really when sexual assualt effects at least 1in 4 women that Other women can be so unsympathetic why going in to a shared sex space that’s out of way and out of sight maybe a problem.

'We understand your concerns and I want to make it clear that if any customer was to act inappropriately or cause intentional offence, the necessary action would be taken' says the standard M&S email reply.

I wonder if M&S routinely left all its store doors wide open overnight, waiting until their stock got stolen before they established a policy of shutting and locking - no, thought not ...

Had the stock 6-line response. I've replied, pointing out that they haven't answered a single one of my questions and asking them to do so.

Just got this response.....

I am sorry to hear that you are unhappy with the change.

I have passed on your feedback to our design team as they have been updating M&S based on customer feedback , that is why I know they will appreciate yours.

I can confirm that you are not the first to bring this to our attention and therefore I’m sure something will be done about this change.

I totally understand where you are coming especially since M&S is known for meeting customers

expectations.

Thanks for the feedback and take care.

Kind Regards

Is this the same as everyone else got?

@Newuser123123 that's the first time I've seen something different to what everyone else has posted. Is that a reply to first or second email? Who was it from?

@Newuser123123 no it isnt, I haven't seen that response. Who was it it from exactly?

I wonder if M&S routinely left all its store doors wide open overnight, waiting until their stock got stolen before they established a policy of shutting and locking - no, thought not ...

Ha, exactly.

I much prefer John Lewis for bras anyway because they actually measure you properly and stock proper bra sizes.

I used the online form. Response from a customer service advisor

I've just replied to my stock email from the CEO 's office to say they didn't answer any of my points, and could Steve Rowe himself now specifically reply to those points referring to the Equality Act 2010 and its actual legal provisions

My M&S has fitting room in children's section heavily advertising bra fitting. There was a curtain in the men's but not sure if it was a changing room. I can't see lone men being comfortable going into children's section.

I can't see lone men being comfortable going into children's section.

Unfortunately I can see a certain type of man who will be very comfortable doing this, now that M&S has expressly given them permission to do so.

Yes...and not just M&S but a large section of society too.

Utter madness.

Thanks for the clarification @ChattyLion

Here are some incredibly brief thoughts on the law as I need to go do dinner.

The single sex exemptions allow service providers to provide single sex services in certain scenarios. But you have to have a justification for it and you cannot know for certain that it is justified unless someone sues you. Also there is zero case law on this, probably because any time anyone does threaten legal action the service providers cave very quickly, so you cannot really look at any other situations and see whether they were or we're not justified yet.

What there is is EHRC guidance. The EHRC guidance has to be taken into account in any legal cases so it is influential. I can find the link if anyone is interested but basically there's an example which is very YN helpful where they say that a clothes shop should let people pick the changing rooms that they like if they are self-contained.

I haven't see anyone using the indirect sex discrimination provisions to argue for single sex spaces. It's an interesting idea but my gut feeling is it would fail to be honest. It's open to the service provider to justify indirect discrimination and I think they could probably point to the fact that it can be quite hard to tell who is legally a man or a woman these days as there is no requirement to pass as the opposite sex to get a GRC.

The disabled angle is interesting. There are some specific disability related provisions in the Equality Act. I think though that the answer would be to get M&S to provide some better wheelchair accessible doors to replace the curtains, rather than keeping sex segregation.

Probably not what you all want to hear but it's my opinion on what the legal position is even if it sucks.

Complained in M&S Harrogate today. Checkout woman was unaware of policy, called duty manager. He can down and I briefly explained my concerns. He was understanding and said they would use their discretion in this store. Seemed sympathetic to my argument. I pressed that I'm sure they would use discretion and I'm glad he said that, but that was not M&S national policy. And that I would like to raise a complaint. He pointed me to Retail Customer Services Team. corporate.marksandspencer.com/contact/customers

Other checkout woman was busying herself with hangers to listen in, so at the very very least I've raised awareness of this policy with more staff, and that the public don't support it.

The EHRC guidance was slammed by a select committee as not being fit for purpose. No wonder as it is run by an ex Stonewall bloke. There was a thread about but I don’t have time to find it just now. Perhaps someone else recalls it?

Doesn't that EHRC 'guidance' confuse sex and gender?

This is what I was thinking of:

A clothes shop has separate changing areas for men and for women with individual cubicles. The shop concludes it would not be appropriate or necessary to exclude a transsexual woman from the female changing room as the privacy and decency of all users can be assured by the provision of the separate cubicles.

www.equalityhumanrights.com/sites/default/files/what-equality-law-means-for-your-business-2018.pdf

Whilst it's slightly different from the M&S context because it's about allowing transsexual women into the women's changing rooms rather than doing away with segregation altogether, I think the same logic applies unfortunately (ie they will think separate cubicles are adequate for privacy).

That's tentatively promising from John Lewis, and interesting that someone finally got a new response from M&S. I wonder if that was just one rational employee going off piste or if it's beginning to dawn on corporate that they've pissed off their core customers.

Does anyone know what Next's policy is?