It’s official; Marks and Spencer have fallen, the sequel.......

[MrsSnippyPants]

First thread getting full and and I continue to be interested in responses received to people’s emails and store visits.

JHB has just brought this up with Michael Gove!

He is desperately trying not answer in a 'politically incorrect' manner. "It is a sensitive issue....." Go Julia!

Engine? anyone 🙄 Allowing engines into the booths would just be silly...

OK good because there seem to be lots of legal issues here and not OK for the EHRC or major high street stores to stick their fingers in their ears and ignore women.

Sassh posts around 3am today show that one legal question is that exemptions in the EQA 2010 allow single sex spaces if this can be justified. Legal question then: What is sufficient justification (to convince M&S to preserve same sex changing rooms) and why do women telling M&S our objections and fears about their current approach of ‘all are welcome to try on ‘panties’ near to girls and women’ not seem to count as justification?

If anyone can by the power of mind thought identify as something else and be accepted as such, why can women’s mind thoughts of not wanting to be vulnerable with men around be accepted as such?

Is there a point when a shop becomes legally unreasonable to insist on mixed sex (but unlabelled as ‘mixed sex’) changing?
despite the evidence women and girls are at greater risk from that Policy? Excluding many women from shopping there? Despite many staff being in line for not being able to work there either because of this policy?

It seems that shops are just rebadging changing rooms as ‘fitting rooms’ and hoping that because they are next to the women’s clothes area (or men’s) that common sense will prevail. I’d they get a rain or sticker for their troubles then all the better.

When lawsuits start to roll in - and they will - they may reconsider but it makes you wonder about the type of people who are making these decisions?

I've sent my third email to M&S after receiving two standard responses - this time I've just asked a list of questions so it will be interesting to see if I get any response.

Sorry if I missed it earlier but has anybody emailed Ocado yet? I wonder if enough people contacted them they might be able to put some pressure on M&S to reverse their decision.

I had a look on their corporate site and found a shareholder circular from April about their upcoming joint venture with M&S - it's the second document on the bottom of this page: www.ocadogroup.com/our-responsibilities.aspx

Here are some snippets from this document that I'm going to quote in my email to them:

'M&S is one of the UK’s leading retailers with a strong heritage of brand values and customer relationships.'

'prior to the announcement of the M&S Arrangements the Group conducted market research on customer shopping habits, the results of which indicated that the M&S brand and M&S products are viewed favourably by the Group’s existing customers'

This is from a section on risk factors:

'the Board does not believe that the loss of certain existing customers will amount to a significant long-term problem for Ocado Retail, as it anticipates that the significant majority of customers will remain loyal to shopping at Ocado.com. In addition, Ocado Retail will have access to,
and is expected to benefit from, the M&S Group’s customers, enabling it to reduce the impact of any loss of its existing customers'

The Ocado chairman Stuart Rose was previously the chairman of M&S. His email is: [email protected]

As I understand it (I am not legally trained, but I have taught E and D) M and S cannot offer a service to some people and not others without justification. The crux is whether the service provided to women (sex based) is not equal to men. The fact women are more likely to attacked is IMHO is a reason the service is worse.

The other issue is the disabled cubicle not having a door at all, that's fairly clearly a poorer service, you can give a better service to disabled customers but not worse. They may say that disabled people struggle with their locks but they could fit the same lock as you get in accessible toilets.

I have had the usual c and p answer to my latest email.

@GrandmaMazur

Unfortunately I don’t think Ocado will be much use on this, or want to get involved. They had their own outbreak of woke over the Primesight billboard issue. They apparently find the dictionary definition of “woman” offensive.

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3376466-ocado-boycott-after-support-of-primesight-action#prettyPhoto

I had wondered if the curtains were to make it easier to manage if you had mobility issues or arthritis (or to make it easier for someone to gain access in an emergency - but I couldn't make a call like that because it's not designed for me.

Did they ask any relevant groups about access? I suspect not.

It was Miranda Yardley on JHB just now, it will be available on catch up later. On at 9.38am, Gove was on at 8.44am.

Thomas the Tank Top Engine 😂

@Artesia

Oh no, that doesn't sound good. I've sent an email to Stuart Rose anyway and will report back if I get a response.

I sent an email to M and S investor relations as someone owning shares in the company and expressing concern about them alienating their core customer base. Got a standard letter back that did not address my concerns - just the usual cut and paste. So I wrote this back:
Dear A....Your answer does not address my concerns at all. I asked re alienating your core customer group and you sent me a standard template.

Your answer is also nonsense in that if a customer acts inappropriately because you allowed a male into female changing, the damage is then done. Action afterwards is no use. You need to prevent it taking place in the first place.

Your business will suffer even more from these policies than it is already. I would say that you are actually putting your business at risk of survival.

I will shortly be selling my shares as I think I will be losing money on them in the future due to your strategy.

I wonder if you emailed them about something else (eg. Nut-free birthday cakes) whether you would still get the same reply?

"What size slippers should I get?"

"We value inclusivity!"

To be honest if you can’t manage a lock you will take someone with you. If you can’t do lock you are unlikely to do shoes, trousers, tops or bras. So doesn’t really make sense not to have Accessible least as secure as others. However “safe” other’s are is another matter.

Some of those spy cameras are scarey. Worse that danger box looks familiar. They seem happy for customers to do extra checking work before using. Yes that makes sense.

"what were you thinking when you put the terrible pink dress in your window display in 2017?"

"we like to make sure we include all customers, including those with no taste! Inclusivity for the win!"

My second email sent...

Dear Liz

I appreciate you will have been given a stock copy and paste response to reply to any emails about your fitting rooms, which you are not allowed to deviate from and is just the same information that is in the twitter reply. It still leaves all the unanswered questions in my email below and I’m disappointed my questions have been ignored.

M&S are NOT striving to be inclusive if they are going to just ignore the concerns raised by many of the female sex - sex is a protected characteristic under the equality act. Gender is not. M&S are now excluding many women from their fitting rooms, this is not inclusive at all.

Please can you escalate my questions to someone more senior who is able to answer them - this is a formal complaint and I would appreciate it if it is given the respect of an appropriate response.

I look forward to hearing from someone soon

What programme is JHB?

Has anyone seen this?

www.womanandhome.com/life/marks-spencer-respond-angry-complaints-gender-neutral-changing-rooms-338273/

That's just the original tweet that brought it all to our attention. They've not said anything else since, just sending copy and paste responses of the same thing to reply to emails.

Actually that’s very useful though - for all those who see no problem with it! This is what has already happened! And this will continue to happen.

Would you have wanted a man in the fitting room area when you were being fitted for your first bra aged 15? Are you happy with that for your daughters?

I just got my stock reply. Off to do email number 2.

Just got my indentikit response, and have replied, restating the question. I also included the charming pictures of jaxpantyguy and asked why his comfort and inclusion was more important to M&S than mine.

It seems that shops are just rebadging changing rooms as ‘fitting rooms’ and hoping that because they are next to the women’s clothes area (or men’s) that common sense will prevail
Yeah, if this is such a Brilliant idea, why isnt m and s and every other company who does it shouting from the rooftops, blathering all over social media, taking out half page adverts, basically telling everyone what a stunning idea they just had?
Hmmm could it be because they know how terrible the idea is, how many customers they will lose.

Do they just think any woman attacked will just believe they were unlucky?
Will the insurance company pay out when someone inevitably takes them to court?

God the longer this rumbles on without a coherent reply to my email the more angry I get.

I suggest try maybe shouldn’t go into the zoo business. ‘Hey guys, I’ve an idea - Let’s be species inclusive! Why not just get rid of bars, electrified fences and barriers and just have all the animals roaming around with the humans!? Just ask the lions not to eat the penguins. What could go wrong?’