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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

It’s official; Marks and Spencer have fallen, the sequel.......

999 replies

MrsSnippyPants · 02/11/2019 23:11

First thread getting full and and I continue to be interested in responses received to people’s emails and store visits.

It’s official; Marks and Spencer have fallen, the sequel.......
OP posts:
Thread gallery
31
TheProdigalKittensReturn · 04/11/2019 21:03

You have to wonder why the are clinging to this so persistently?

In cases where doing so is clearly a terrible idea from a business perspective I tend to assume that there's someone high up on the management team with a personal interest in the (stupid, impractical) policy they're proposing.

LordProfFekkoThePenguinPhD · 04/11/2019 21:07

Someone did the training obviously.

I worked with people like that - they’d have a shiny new toy, understood it only a tiny amount, and were a wee bit starstruck bt an external supplier/agency (also on a power kick). Would strut around as if they had the Holt Grail and everyone else was stupid.

A particular person I’m thinking of cost the business around £1m in absolute nonsense which has to be reversed as it was completely impractical.

Nextphonewontbesamsung · 04/11/2019 21:07

I will be boycotting too. Silly arses.

beckyvardy · 04/11/2019 21:10

Has anyone had a non standard response yet?

littlecabbage · 04/11/2019 21:11

Shitting hell, those cameras are scary.

In the future, changing rooms will have to be made with totally smooth, sealed walls and ceilings, and nothing stuck to them, so that cameras could be easily seen.

PurpleCrowbar · 04/11/2019 21:12

ProdigalKittens bizapt ('exactly' in Arabic).

Follow up email was sent, pointing out that:

A) I'm an expat, who usually shops with them when I visit the UK - because the horrendous mark up means a £10 bra, say, for a teenage dd, is £20-25 here. So whilst I might very occasionally use their 'franchise store' that oddly (oooh, wonder why) doesn't have these changing room arrangements whilst here, my core business with them is on bi-annual uk visits. When I usually spend a couple of hundred on underwear & uniform for my dds.

Not any more.

B) even though their 'franchise store' here doesn't let men into women's changing areas - they just kissed goodbye to my money, as the parent company.

& yep, fucking lazy response.

Michelleoftheresistance · 04/11/2019 21:13

in the men's, labelled ‘Women only, absolutely no men allowed ever ever ever’ with a high pitched giggly soundtrack playing inside and a fluffy pink carpet

or show me to a dusty old wardrobe in the basement labelled The Evil Witches' Changing Room with a broken mirror, I honestly don't care so long as it's female only.

It's ridiculous isn't it? We live, as females, in a world where it's fucking normal that male people are designing, selling, installing very well hidden cameras in female spaces where they're undressing and peeing, they're sharing the photos online, discussing it, like it's some kind of hunting expedition where they get their jollies....

and we're having to fucking plead with national institutions not to throw the doors of female changing spaces open to male people of any type or description who want to . And trying to explain that it's reasonable and rational to not want to be the victim of this, or just a body used unconsentingly in someone else's life.

AutumnCrow · 04/11/2019 21:13

Got my rote response from Ffion Holmes, Chief Executive Team, after emailing Steve Rowe the CEO.

It didn't address a single issue I'd personally raised.

FlyingOink · 04/11/2019 21:18

You have to wonder why the are clinging to this so persistently?
Because TRAs sue and we don't. Because boycotts get forgotten (rather quickly if the boycotts are inconvenient). Because it's actually safer to piss off 51% of the population than risk the wrath of the permanently aggrieved.
We definitely need more test cases. A group of observant Jewish women taking M&S to court for failing to make clear that changing rooms are now unisex, for example. A post-operative woman claiming psychological distress when having a mastectomy bra fitted with a man on the other side of the partition, because it wasn't advertised as a unisex fitting room. Make M&S spend money advertising the fact their changing rooms are unisex.

The case of the female prisoner sexually assaulted by a man who identified as a woman is in the news right now, but there are dozens of other similar cases that we should be crowdfunding.
It's literally the only thing that companies and politicians will pay attention to.

SirVixofVixHall · 04/11/2019 21:22

michelleoftheresistance that post actually made me well up. So true, and so bleakly depressing. I have daughters, I despair, I really do.

Michelleoftheresistance · 04/11/2019 21:23

A group of observant Jewish women taking M&S to court for failing to make clear that changing rooms are now unisex

Or orthodox Muslim women, women who are Jehovah's Witnesses - I would like to see M&S clearly state and stand behind that they have a policy of excluding women from their stores whose religion precludes them from undressing in the vicinity of people born male regardless of how that person born male chooses to identify themselves.

Then let them explain their policy of excluding women with disabilities who are unable due to their disability to enact social behaviours that do not match their perceptions.

And women who have been traumatised and raped. M&S have a policy of excluding those women. Their needs are not welcome in M&S stores.

Own it, M&S. Stand behind it. Have the guts to admit what you're enacting and what you believe.

Michelleoftheresistance · 04/11/2019 21:26

And if the answer is 'well women can buy on line or try and return if they're not comfortable to undress in mixed sex changing rooms'...

why is this not an appropriate answer to the very small minority of people unhappy about being asked to use the changing room of their sex? Unpack that thinking a bit, and let's play spot the sexism.

LordProfFekkoThePenguinPhD · 04/11/2019 21:27

Because that’s not the game is it?

TheProdigalKittensReturn · 04/11/2019 21:31

even though their 'franchise store' here doesn't let men into women's changing areas - they just kissed goodbye to my money, as the parent company.

And I'm another expat who was brought up to have brand loyalty to them to the point where I'd have been willing to pay overseas shipping for knickers and socks. Guess who won't be doing that this year?

LordProfFekkoThePenguinPhD · 04/11/2019 21:32

I used to send loads of M&S goodies and underwear to family abroad. They understand...

FlyingOink · 04/11/2019 21:38

And if the answer is 'well women can buy on line or try and return if they're not comfortable to undress in mixed sex changing rooms'...

I'm guessing people spend more from home. As in, order more and occasionally forget to take stuff back. Whereas in a changing room, if it doesn't look right, it goes back on the rack. So perhaps that doesn't hurt M&S much?

OTOH, a man trying on women's clothes in a changing room is not going to be buying much. He's there for the thrill. I should imagine that men who actually buy women's clothes do so mainly online, surely it'd be easier to find the right sizes.

Maybe they just don't care if nobody uses the fitting rooms at all?

PurpleCrowbar · 04/11/2019 22:24

& my dd1 really LIKES their bras.

She's not a big fan of the whole puberty thing. She's autistic, attracted to girls, likes choosing one bra which fits & then just buying it in different plain colours.

M&S are very easy for her - good range of options which she can then choose colours from knowing that the fit is reliable. She hates girly anything. She just wants bras which will fit & not be noticed in the PE changing rooms.

M&S was her bra natural home.

Dd2 is completely different- happy to be fitted in M&S but then heads straight for the funkier alternatives elsewhere.

They both have every right not to be shoved out of changing rooms by dubious blokes.

Yes, I buy for both of them online these days. Both of them have said that they'd rather try a few bras on & return the ones that don't fit.

Fine. We can definitely do that.

But I think M&S need to understand that that's why we were there in the first place.

They don't sell clothes I want to buy. I wouldn't go there myself for a bra. I was giving them my custom because I vaguely thought they were where you went for school uniform trousers or teenage bras, like going to Clarkes for shoes.

Or - mind you I'd currently have to drag my mum in - for smart but comfy clothes for elderly female relatives.

M&S. I was the wallet you were looking at, & you have closed it.

sashh · 05/11/2019 03:26

Just a thought, when we discuss this policy should we refer to it as 'Ratner rooms'?

I'm thinking the next move is to contact the Equality and Equal rights commission, but I'm not sure whether that should be done by a group or by individuals.

sashh · 05/11/2019 03:28

From the commission's website

Guidance and assistance
The Commission is the regulatory body responsible for enforcing the Equality Act 2010. We are also accredited by the United Nations as an “A status” national human rights institution. Our duties include reducing inequality, eliminating discrimination and promoting and protecting human rights.

The focus of our regulatory role is to help organisations achieve what they should, not catch them out if they fall short. To help us do this, we have a range of powers. These include providing advice and guidance, publishing information and undertaking research.

When these methods are ineffective, we also have a range of enforcement powers. These powers are set out in the Equality Act 2006 and play an essential role in helping us make a difference.

There are a number of different approaches we can take, depending on the particular circumstances we are trying to change. They range from guidance and assistance to investigations and court action.

We do not get involved in every issue or dispute, however. We only use our legal or enforcement powers when it is the best way to achieve change, such as:

to clarify the law, so people and organisations have a clearer understanding of their rights and duties
to highlight priority issues and force these back to the top of the agenda
to challenge policies or practices that cause significant disadvantage, sometimes across a whole industry or sector
To do this, we use the courts and tribunals to secure binding, positive judgments that reinforce, strengthen or expand people's rights.

By using our powers in this way, our legal actions secure widespread and lasting benefits, positively influencing the everyday experiences of millions of individuals.

sashh · 05/11/2019 03:34

Just found this - equalityhumanrights.com/en/advice-and-guidance/core-guidance-using-businesses-offer-goods-facilities-and-services-public

Generally, a business which is providing separate services or single-sex services should treat a transsexual person according to the sex in which the transsexual person presents (as opposed to the physical sex they were born with, as it is unlawful to discriminate against someone because of gender reassignment Although a business can exclude a transsexual person or provide them with a different service, this is only if it can objectively justify doing so.

sashh · 05/11/2019 03:37

helpful link to contact form

www.equalityadvisoryservice.com/app/ask

sashh · 05/11/2019 04:06

OK latest email I have sent

Dear MrNorman,

After receiving the standard email sent to various women over the weekend re men being allowed into women's changing areas, I would like to inform you that I am considering taking legal action.

Guidance from the Equality and Human Rights Commission about single sex spaces includes the following; "Generally, a business which is providing separate services or single-sex services should treat a transsexual person according to the sex in which the transsexual person presents (as opposed to the physical sex they were born with, as it is unlawful to discriminate against someone because of gender reassignment Although a business can exclude a transsexual person or provide them with a different service, this is only if it can objectively justify doing so."

There are other sections making it clear that providing single sex spaces are legal.

As a woman who is also disabled I am asking you to uphold the law and to make single sex changing facilities available in departments where clothes items for women are sold.

I do understand that trans women as well as men who cross dress may wish to try on women's clothing before sale but I believe this could be achieved by either
a) providing a single gender neutral / mixed sex space
or
b) offering appointments where a changing room can be booked for 15-20 mins.

I would further like to stat that taking action after someone has acted 'inappropriately' is, in my opinion, a ridiculous position, if someone spills tea in one of your cafes your staff would not wait until someone had slipped in it before clearing it up. If you car indicates a problem with the brakes you do not wait until you have crashed. It is a foreseeable risk and flashing has happened in M and S.

I look forward to your reply

Mummyoflittledragon · 05/11/2019 04:07

Sashh
Thank you. You’re doing a fab job.... I see you’re up early again like me as always this time of year. Awake since 2.30 and with a stonking headache, the links make as much sense as if it’s in a foreign language and will read / digest another time.

I just wanted to say that if you’re looking to contact the E&E rights commission I’d be up for putting my signature to it.

Is there anyone with a legal background on this thread? Should this question be raised in legal?

Mummyoflittledragon · 05/11/2019 04:11

I am also disabled. Just seen your letter. I was wondering if because the disabled changing room has a curtain and not a lockable door that this could be seen as discriminatory? I’m referring to the link you posted 3.34 from equalityhumanrights.com. Afterall they’ve told how many of us just on this thread alone that all changing rooms have lockable doors....

sashh · 05/11/2019 04:29

Mummy it could be, it depends. I'm no legal expert.

I'm going to wait for a reply and then fill in the EHRC contact form. I think if a number of us did this the EHRC might just contact M and S, even if they don't, the guidance will be invaluable.

I also think anyone on here who cannot use mixed facilities for religious reasons should contact them.

Yes I'm usually up early, I shocked the milk man the first time I spoke to him, he delivers between 2 and 3 am and is not used to meeting customers.

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