It’s official; Marks and Spencer have fallen, the sequel.......

[MrsSnippyPants]

First thread getting full and and I continue to be interested in responses received to people’s emails and store visits.

It’s being discussed on Jeremy Vine now. The farmer’s attitude is maddening.

I am going to throw something at the tv in a minute. All us women are just so silly to worry about men in the womens changing room. Grrr!!!!!!

I know @Joisanofthedales, they pussyfooted around the whole issue and didn’t raise one sensible point against this decision by M&S. Every single woman shrugged and said “doesn’t bother me.” And nobody countered it with the fact they do not represent every woman. Only Jeremy seemed to be slightly on the fence. I had to walk out of the room! I normally find the debates quite balanced on there.

I didn't realise there was a Target in Ausdtralia, sorry people.

That cut and paste reply is making me ragey. For a start the “ other retailers are doing it too” tack , is the equivalent of my 14 year old dd saying that “everyone else’s Mum lets them do x,y,z....”
Also the “inclusive”...just how is it inclusive to exclude the huge majority of women who want and need single sex space ?
Then there is the utter rudeness and disrespect of using a cut and paste reply when your CUSTOMERS have taken the time to explain why they do not want this policy, sometimes mentioning distressing and personal reasons.

I really want to shop at M&S. I have been going there for my entire life. Yesterday I found one of my old childhood vests, with the St Michael label ,in a box of things from my Mum’s house.
I don’t want to take my money elsewhere, but they are making it impossible for me to make any other choice.

There have been five occasions in the time this thread has been live that I would have specifically gone in to M&S to get multiple things for myself or my household. It really is my go-to shop for all manner of needs - five minutes away.

I have driven across town multiple times this week, to reach other shops, specifically to spend my money where I and other women and girls aren’t treated with such utter disdain.

I repeat - Marks & Spencer, you aren’t going to get a penny from me.

Sort yourselves out and fix this.

I got the same standard bog-off reply, this time from Megan Large (presumably Lauren is having a much-needed break).

Don't know if this is helpful to anyone, but this is what I've just sent to Megan by way of Round 2. Some of the questions I have shamelessly filched from other posters!

Dear Ms Large,

Thank you for responding so quickly.

I am sorry to tell you that I am not at all reassured that you do understand my concerns, particularly with regard to my reference to the Equality Act and the obvious safeguarding risk for women and girls.

Could you please therefore let me have the following information?

1.	Are all changing rooms in all M&S stores are completely sealed from ceiling to floor? With locks?
2.	How often do staff routinely check for hidden cameras? As you must be aware, this is a genre of pornography that has increased with the introduction of mixed sex facilities. What arrangements do you have in place to prevent this known risk?
3.	How many members of staff are routinely present at the entrance to changing areas at all times and what training have they received? 
4.	Does the signage outside all of your changing room areas make it clear to all customers that they are entering a mixed sex space where they may be vulnerable and in a state of undress?
5.	What are your official safeguarding measures and guidelines with regard to inappropriate behaviour? What training and support have you made available to your own staff in dealing with inappropriate behaviour?
6.	You must be aware of this incident - <a class="break-all" href="https://www.chroniclelive.co.uk/news/north-east-news/cctv-released-after-man-exposed-14449259." rel="nofollow" target="_blank">www.chroniclelive.co.uk/news/north-east-news/cctv-released-after-man-exposed-14449259.</a> How can you be sure that your policy of allowing all customers to use the changing room area in which "they feel most comfortable" and "identify with", did not apply in this man's case? Are you quite satisfied that your policy will not inhibit or deter any other customer - specifically women and girls - from using the same space? 
7.	What provisions do you have in place for any women or orthodox Jewish people and Muslims, who come under all customers, who do not or cannot share these facilities with males? Are these spaces just available for those with specific religious beliefs or can any woman request access to these provisions?
8.	Do you have both male and female staff permanently on duty outside each changing area so that appropriate assistance can be sought by customers who only feel safe or comfortable in a same sex space when trying on clothing? 
9.	Why does M&S's Code of Ethics say "We treat everyone equally regardless of age, gender, gender reassignment..." etc, with no mention of sex? Is M&S aware that sex is a protected characteristic under the Equality Act 2010 (as is gender reassignment) but gender is not? Is M&S aware of the difference?
10.	How does M&S justify excluding the protected characteristic of sex in what may be a clear breach of the law?

You may wish to escalate this to someone in charge of safeguarding, of course. I would be most interested to hear from them.

Yours, etc.

Bless ‘im - Lewis Moonie is boycotting the!

Hahaha, the auto reply now comes from Archie Norman, with his link helpfully provided.

I guess it has already been escalated.

This is the reply I received this morning:

Thank you for taking the time to contact us.

As a business, we strive to be inclusive and therefore, we allow customers the choice of which fitting room they feel comfortable to use, in respect of how they identify themselves. This is an approach other retailers and leisure facilities have also adopted.

We understand your concerns and I want to make it clear that if any customer was to act inappropriately or cause intentional offence, the necessary action would be taken.

Thank you again for your email.

Kind regards

Gary Bragg
Executive Team
Your M&S Customer Service

So something has to happen - ie inappropriate behaviour etc - before they will do anything. I don't think they have considered safeguarding at all.

Nothing in response to my comments about women and girls (me) feeling uncomfortable. I mentioned about curtained cubicles and cubicles with doors having gaps, and about wanting to come out of cubicles sometimes to look at a mirror from a bit more of a distance. No response. Also no response to my comment about not buying M&S products in future and that I was currently searching for alternatives.

I really don't know what to reply. They obviously don't care.

Exactly the same first response I got, Fridgegrazer.

I noticed that SingingLily and I have looked at your reply - I will probably pinch a few ideas from it if you don't mind.

Please go ahead, fridgegrazer. It's obvious now that Stage 2 correspondence is being diverted to Archie Norman's office.

The more Stage 2 letters, the better, in my view.

Stock reply here too though I have emailed a follow up. I also telephoned my local store to check their policy and it was the same answer; I said I would be taking my custom elsewhere.

if any customer was to act inappropriately or cause intentional offence stable door and bolts eh?

So to make a tiny number of people 'feel better' they are making a whole load feel uncomfortable, wary, scared, embarrassed. Great move.

I emailed on Saturday - & today I've received what is obviously the cut-and-paste reply that is shown at the top of the first thread..
That's another customer that they've lost...

Do tell them! Let them know - and see - the results of their actions.

I've received the same nonsense cut and paste response.

I will be replying asking why they think it is acceptable to exclude women, particularly those who's religious beliefs stop them sharing space with male bodies not their husbands, such as my friend who is a strict Christian. I will also ask why they think it is acceptable to require a woman or child be assaulted before they will take action.

I'll also point out that I won't be shopping there again because of this policy and that I will be actively discouraging other women to boycott too.

Just had a response back too. The same as many others here.

Thank you for taking the time to contact us.

As a business, we strive to be inclusive and therefore, we allow customers the choice of which fitting room they feel comfortable to use, in respect of how they identify themselves. This is an approach other retailers and leisure facilities have also adopted.

We understand your concerns and I want to make it clear that if any customer was to act inappropriately or cause intentional offence, the necessary action would be taken.

Thank you again for your email.

Kind regards

Alice Needham
Executive Team
Your M&S Customer Service

Is there any point in replying?

All these companies who are so eager to put women's and children's safety, privacy and dignity at risk disgusts me. They can't bleat they didn't know like the bbc did with the likes of Jimmy Saville or all the other safeguarding scandles of the past. We have on record them proudly fucking women and children over while patting themselves on the back.

Yes, Aurelia, worth replying.

Fekko - that's what does my head in, as well.

Why all the bending over backwards to appease that one mouthy school bully, but are more than happy to upset the rest of the school in the process??

Are M&S et al just 'too chicken' to deal with the inevitable bullying and whinging from TRAs?

I think I'll email the CEO at the email I found online.

He needs know his customers are fucked off, and why, and how his staff are really not helping at all.

Could you please share the CEO email address Autumn?

Anyone else unable to submit the feedback form on the website?

I got my first response from Lauren, and sent my second back to her:

Thank you for your email, and please note my points in response below.

All M&S fitting rooms have lockable cubicles designed to protect each customer’s privacy.

Many of which have gaps under and over the walls, which can be used to peer over or observe or record with a phone.

As a business, we strive to be inclusive and therefore, we allow customers the choice of which fitting room they feel comfortable to use, in respect of how they identify themselves.

However, if your customer has been of the female sex (ie since birth) you don't have a choice available which meets the needs of those of us who want to share only with others of the female sex (from birth). Therefore there is nowhere for us to change in your stores where we could feel comfortable as there may be male born people there.

This is an approach other retailers and leisure facilities have also adopted.

Irrelevant

We understand your concerns

I dont think you do.

and I want to make it clear that if any customer was to act inappropriately or cause intentional offence, the necessary action would be taken.

Too late when someone's scarpered after filming you undressed, or worse. How dare you put women and girls at risk like this!

Please address my latest points.