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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

It’s official; Marks and Spencer have fallen, the sequel.......

999 replies

MrsSnippyPants · 02/11/2019 23:11

First thread getting full and and I continue to be interested in responses received to people’s emails and store visits.

It’s official; Marks and Spencer have fallen, the sequel.......
OP posts:
Thread gallery
31
AutumnCrow · 04/11/2019 13:07

From the website CEOemail.com:
_
Marks & Spencer Group Plc

Mr Steve Rowe Chief Executive

Email [email protected]

Telephone 020 7935 4422
Switchboard 020 7935 4422
Fax 020 7487 2679
Website www.marksandspencer.com
Social Media T F

Postal Address Waterside House, 35 North Wharf Road, London, W2 1NWM
Company Number 04256886C
Company Status Active (Established 23/07/2001)

Manderleyagain · 04/11/2019 13:23

What email address are people using to contact m&s?

SirVixofVixHall · 04/11/2019 13:29

Yes, what is the best email to use ? I am formulating my email today.

AutumnCrow · 04/11/2019 13:33

I'm going to email the CEO this afternoon.

I sent a test email and it hasn't bounced back so it seems correct.

AllMumsyWereTheBorrowedClothes · 04/11/2019 13:37

I've just used [email protected] and got an automated response to acknowledge receipt, so it seems to work.

I also included a photo of the curtained cubicle in the ground floor fitting room in the women's section of my nearest branch (it was empty and I was the only one in there). The fitting room is a short distance from the exit, and had only intermittent staff presence, so would be easy for a suspect character to flee if anything 'inappropriate' were to happen (over the total inappropriateness of a man in the women's changing room)

Not expecting much by way of a response, everyone's so far seems to be a bit 'Women Know Your Place'

SarahTancredi · 04/11/2019 13:44

Email sent.

I may have pointed out that male bidied people are included in the male changing facilities so why they are doing is excluding women as men know have the mens and womens changing room.

So any response banging on about inclusivity means they haven't read it or dont give a shit

MrsSnippyPants · 04/11/2019 13:47

My letter/email, shamelessly plagiarised form many of the fantastic responses already posted here.
Feel free to copy mine or copy bits of it. Sending it to M&S this afternoon.

Dear XXXXX

I write to you both as a customer and a shareholder.
I read recently that you have changed your policy on changing rooms. In reply to feminist campaigner Jean Hatchet, who queried a man being present in a female changing room, you stated on Twitter that you“allow customers to use the fitting room they feel comfortable to use in respect of how they identify themselves”.

Given there is evidence that women are more at risk when there are mixed sex changing/fitting rooms, and that 98% of sexual crimes are committed by males, why are you finding it so hard to understand there are real concerns here? Men are more likely to commit sexual crimes in mixed sex facilities, and businesses should take steps to prevent it from happening, not make it easier for them. Why should women just accept this? Why do you think single sex facilities existed in the first place?
www.independent.co.uk/life-style/women/sexual-assault-unisex-changing-rooms-sunday-times-women-risk-a8519086.html

womanmeanssomething.com/1034-2/

Women and girls require safety, dignity, and privacy when in a vulnerable state, e.g. when partly undressed in a changing room.

SAFETY
To be absolutely clear, women are the female sex, determined at conception and observed at birth. Men are the male sex, also determined at conception and observed at birth. Like most people , I do not care how someone 'identifies'; I care what SEX they are, because knowing that allows me to assess how much of a threat they may pose to my safety.

DIGNITY
Are you aware of the large number of men who have sexual fetishes around being in women's private spaces? Who like to masturbate onto toilet seats, onto women's clothing, in the hope that some unsuspecting woman will come into contact with their semen? Sorry to be frank, but women know these things, we know of the thousands of cases of tiny cameras being discovered in toilets and changing rooms, planted by men. Why is giving men easier access to do these things a sensible policy? Can you imagine how these girls and women feel to know that their images have been shared over the internet as pornography for perverted men?

PRIVACY
Not just bodily privacy, but the privacy to discuss with assistants the right kind of nursing bra, post-mastectomy bra, first bra for a girl beginning puberty. Knowing there are only other females around us, maybe overhearing us, tends not to worry us, because we know other women have empathy on those issues. But do I want to discuss any of those issues in the hearing of men I do not know? I do not. Especially as there are men who are sexually aroused by hearing these things discussed, who are even sexually aroused by hearing women urinate in toilets.

As to your assertion that 'everyone else is doing it', well you sound like a teenager who wants to be allowed to go to a party on a school night. It is a ridiculous assertion. Yes, lots of other stores ARE doing this, and women are complaining to them too, and boycotting them.

Center Parcs have managed to reassure their female customers, and provide suitable facilities for people who consider themselves 'transgender'. They are following the law. Why can't you do the same?

You should know men don't want this either. Men are wary of being labelled as peeping toms, creeps, perverts, they don't want to be in enclosed or confined spaces with other people’s children especially little girls. It leaves men open to false accusations.

Exactly what kind of man WANTS to access spaces where women and girls are vulnerable? There are only three reasons: predation, fetish, or validation of their desire to present as a sexual stereotype of a woman.
As you are so keen on inclusion, have I missed your explanation on how this policy includes women of faiths that do allow them to share intimate spaces with men? Or those women who have mental health issues, even disabilities due to male violence? How are you 'including' them?

And what of your female staff who fall into these categories? Are they to be forced to measure men for bras? To help men adjust their underwear for a proper fit? In fact what about ALL your female staff; what training have you provided in challenging inappropriate behaviour?

I think the Chief Executive and his fellow male directors should volunteer to serve the men who want to 'comfortably' try on clothes in the lingerie changing rooms, including measuring up. Let them experience a little bit of life on the shop floor.

The safety, comfort and opinion of women and girls matters. Sometimes the comfort of a small minority of individuals cannot and should not be held in higher regard than that of the majority. Women should not have to compromise our safety, dignity, and privacy to accommodate all.

Finally, I would ask, have you advised your insurers that you are reducing harm prevention measures for girls and women on your premises? That you have increased the risk to girls and women by removing single sex facilities? Because the fact that many customers have made you aware of this risk yet you went out of your way not to mitigate it will surely not play well should a claim for damages occur.
I would really like answers to my questions though I doubt I shall get them. But until you give women and girls the right to single sex changing rooms (a right they have under the Equality Act 2010, and a right YOU have to provide them, because the act allows the utilisation of exemptions to facilitate single sex spaces) I will no longer be a customer, nor will many of my friends and family who do not have the time to write to you, but feel the same way I do.

Yours, An ex-customer, and a shareholder considering her options depending on your response to women's concerns.

P.S
Guess which legally protected characteristic is NOT included in this policy, available on your website? (Page 6, in case you are not familiar with it)
‘Gender’ seems to have been put in there instead of SEX . Have you been lobbied, ‘trained’ or been given ‘legal advice’ that you should do this?
Advice that may have been adopted, like so many others have done, purely on trust - not adopted on basis of legal fact?
corporate.marksandspencer.com/documents/policy-documents/code-of-ethics.pdf

OP posts:
MrsSnippyPants · 04/11/2019 13:51

Should read "
As you are so keen on inclusion, have I missed your explanation on how this policy includes women of faiths that do NOT allow them to share intimate spaces with men? Or those women who have mental health issues, even disabilities due to male violence? How are you 'including' them?"

OP posts:
Aurielia · 04/11/2019 14:00

Great email MrsSnippyPants

SarahTancredi · 04/11/2019 14:01

Mine just bounced back.

So the website contact form.doesnt work and the CEO email didnt work.

Wtf is going on

Ninkaninus · 04/11/2019 14:07

Anyone who finds they can’t submit an email or complaint, might be worth making it an open letter to M&S instead (no need to add your name), printing out a few copies and taping them to the inside of doors on fitting rooms/toilets on your next visit?

Terfykins · 04/11/2019 14:25

Should have added, the Telegraph article linked above says that Steve Rowe himself has been in charge of the clothing and home division since July.

MrsSnippyPants · 04/11/2019 14:31

I sent mine to [email protected] and [email protected] and have just received the standard reply from Archie Norman as others have.

OP posts:
MrsSnippyPants · 04/11/2019 14:34

I would like to post my letter on Twitter, so I need to host it somewhere. Any ideas?

OP posts:
AutumnCrow · 04/11/2019 14:36

I might send my letter snail mail as well, to:

Steve Rowe
CEO
Marks & Spencer
Waterside House
35 N Wharf Rd
Paddington
London
W2 1NW

Actual letters require responses. And they're more expensive and time-consuming to reply to than emails.

AutumnCrow · 04/11/2019 14:38

@MrsSnippyPants link your Tweet to this thread?

FairyBatman · 04/11/2019 14:40

I wonder if concerns would get more traction with a bit of direct action.

What would happen if I, as an obviously biological female, were to decided to use the men’s fitting rooms?

I probably wouldn’t get changed in one but I might sit on Mumsnet for 15 minutes causing a queue.

What if everyone did that until Men started complaining, you know since their wishes carry so much more weight than ours?

StealthMama · 04/11/2019 14:45

They may have had such a large response that they've shut the email down.

I managed to respond to the generic email yesterday with this....

Thanks for adding my email address to the generic comms message.

You are totally failing to address the issue of safeguarding a vulnerable group in favour of appeasing a few who chart a course of propaganda to revoke women’s rights. To have a penis is to be male.

How exactly will you deal with inappropriate behaviour?
What do you consider to be inappropriate behaviour?
Why are you ignoring the Equality Act?
Have you read the statics of assault in mixed sex facilities?
Why are you opening up the risk opportunity when you cannot provide mitigation?
How can I lock the cubicle door with a pram?

Regards,

I've also emailed my local Conservative, Lib Dem and labour offices to ask where women's rights will fit into their election manifesto and what policies will they advocate for if elected. I was thinking about a thread where we can share and compare responses if others do it too, what do you think?

Birdsfoottrefoil · 04/11/2019 14:55

This is sex discrimination. The reason you have single sex changing rooms is to enable women to access services despite their vulnerabilities. My making changing rooms mixed sex 5hey are discriminating against women.

IsadoraQuagmire · 04/11/2019 15:14

My cut and paste reply was from someone called Liz Coady, otherwise identical to all the others...

Glenthezombiebattlingostrich · 04/11/2019 15:20

Mine was from Liz too. I do feel bad for the staff but hopefully it's keeping them very busy for the next few days.

jhuizinga · 04/11/2019 15:22

That may well be the case, Stealthmama. I emailed Steve Rowe on Saturday and got the stock response from Lauren which did not address any of the points I made. I replied, pointing this out, and got what seems to be the stock response from Archie Norman (from a no-reply email address) I await a proper response with interest.

LordProfFekkoThePenguinPhD · 04/11/2019 15:22

Go Go @MrsSnippyPants!

Datun · 04/11/2019 15:39

Fantastic MrsSnippyPants.

Inappropriate behaviour!! It's so stupid and shortsighted. A man admiring himself in a bra in the full-length mirror, raking you up and down with his eyes and smirking.

Is that inappropriate?

He's staring at me? How far do we think that will go????

They are privileged, entitled, insulated idiots. They have absolutely zero idea how a well placed flick of an eyebrow can send a shiver of fear through a woman.