It's official, Marks and Spencer have fallen

[MrsSnippyPants]

I know we have 'known' this for a while, but this is now their official response. How many 'inappropriate' incidents will be necessary before they see sense?

#BoycottM&S

And that Canadian person is Yaniv. Google them - they're the kind of individual who would expect you to give them a bra fitting.

And think it would be appropriate for them to "help" 12/13 year old girls to insert a tampon.

Just to be clear, that’s a MAN, with a PENIS, brazenly strutting around in a shelter full of women.

These types of threads always go the same way as well, with people coming on to tell us we are transphobic, hysterical, paranoid etc.

But as soon as some actual arguments start being put forward as to why this is wrong and bad for women then it's... Radio silence.

Always the same.

Would still appreciate a definition of 'trans' for the purposes of this thread, but I won't hold my breath now.

How about some emails to M and S big bods?

corporate.marksandspencer.com/aboutus/our-leadership-team

I see some are on Linkedin.

Oh my! My post about being in a mentally and physically vulnerable position postnatal in a M&S cubicle was deleted because I said I wouldn't have benefited from having a man in the next cubicle to me.

I think it was my use of ''stuffing'' to describe the method he may use to put on underpants

I stuff myself into me undies every morning

Well, a LOT of people on Twitter, including me, have told M&S exactly what they think of them {grin}

it's hyperbolic language to get people frothing on a trans issues thread.

It's not a trans issues thread!

It's about men - their policy means any man can enter the women's changing rooms. Which means a lot of women and girls cannot, for reasons of privacy and fear for their safety.

And that fear isn't undone by some women saying they're fine with it and they think those who aren't are being "hysterical".

A couple of years ago I was using one of just two cubicles in the ”Ladies” of a supermarket. Mid-stream I became distracted at the volume of the tsunami taking place next door. We both exited our cubicles together ..... it was a man. I immediately shouted at him “this is the ladies”. He was speechless, looked absolutely horrified and embarrassed and ran out. I have no doubt he’d made a genuine error.

That is how a real man, and not a pervert, would react on realising that he had encroached on women’s space.

The bra measuring lady in an M&S I visited recently told me men try to get in all the time. I had asked her to have a word about a large teenage boy sprawled at the entrance to the fitting room. He was waiting for his mum and was possibly just clueless but he could see right in.

The lady told me men wander in on all sort of pretexts - "getting lost", accompanying wives and girlfriends (wtf I know but it happens) and just general perves.

Well now they've been handed the keys. I've loved M&S forever but it's over. And I'll be contacting them.

It’s not just M&S though, anyone just seems to wander into our local Next changing room and I am sure I have been in a GAP which was a shared changing room.

I do not see it is relevant whether an attendant (or anyone else) can correctly identify whether someone’s sex is male or female; they are not the police and they shouldn’t have to be making any such judgment because we should be able to rely on people to use the correct space for their sex and their should be social censure when they don’t. In other words, and as in most walks of life, it is individuals who must self-regulate. Everyone knows what sex they are, even those who deny sex exists/is relevant and therefore everyone knows which is the appropriate space to use. If someone uses the wrong space everyone knows that they are doing something wrong, whether or not they are committing a crime (and whether or not anyone spots them). It is the law and social convention that has always kept this working, not changing room attendants policing the spaces.

Men who want to be in a women’s space know all of this and are using trans ideology to try and force a change in social convention and the law so that they are no longer in the wrong when using the wrong space. Many, many people are facilitating them.

Men should only enter women’s spaces when the women using that space invite them (not because they have asked or demanded to be there).

I can see far more uproar being caused by women invading men's spaces and crossing their boundaries. Poor menz.

Absolutely. Remember the uproar when women invaded the men's outdoor pool in Hampstead Heath to protest about anyone identifying as female being allowed into their pool. Police were called to escort them out. Couldn't understand why it was ok one way and not the other.

I don’t see the issue if all changing rooms/cubicals are lockable? It’s no different than my local pool which has always had individual changing rooms, they don’t advertise it as anything other than “changing facilities”.

Men should only enter women’s spaces when the women using that space invite them

That's when all women using the space invite them not 'oh but my friend said it was OK'.

And I do not give a tinker's fart how men 'identify'. I'm not your mother, your perception of yourself isn't my problem. If you want me to play therapist my rate is £1,000 per minute cash up front.

But as soon as some actual arguments start being put forward as to why this is wrong and bad for women then it's... Radio silence

Always the same

^^This. Been raped and now suffering PTSD at even the slightest presence of a male-bodied person? Bigot. Suffered years of physical abuse from men and now cannot bear to be near any male-bodied person? Transphobic. But no one cares about that.

It’s no different than my local pool which has always had individual changing rooms, they don’t advertise it as anything other than “changing facilities”.

Well then actually it is different isn't it, as the changing rooms are being declared as 'mixed sex' so when you use them you know who will be around.

Unlike M and S who essentially have mixed sex changing rooms, but are still labeling them as 'men and women's changing rooms'.

Incidentally though, unisex changing rooms are not great for women and children anyway...

www.independent.co.uk/life-style/women/sexual-assault-unisex-changing-rooms-sunday-times-women-risk-a8519086.html

it's hyperbolic language to get people frothing on a trans issues thread

It's not a trans issues thread. It's a women's issues thread. Stop reversing the problem to put us on the back foot.

Women need single sex spaces and services. For all the reasons they have always needed them.

Nothing to do with trans people. Nothing to do with metaphysical beliefs about identity. I want and need my single sex services. No XYs. Simples.

Women repeatedly say no. This is a hard limit for me but are ignored and called hysterical.

Apparently women just don't matter.

"I don’t see the issue if all changing rooms/cubicals are lockable?"

If lockable doors mean that it doesn't matter who's getting changed next to you, why don't the males all stay in the men's changing rooms? Why do they need to be with women?

It is interesting of course that women’s space have already been eroded by the GRA and the presence of male attendants in women’s loos; both of which to a degree remove the protection of law/social convention.

There is a question of how far these perhaps understandable exceptions should go.

Voting with my feet.
And with the rest of my family's feet too - as the person who organises shopping for 3 generations.