It's official, Marks and Spencer have fallen

[MrsSnippyPants]

I know we have 'known' this for a while, but this is now their official response. How many 'inappropriate' incidents will be necessary before they see sense?

#BoycottM&S

Justabaker and silencedwitness I've PMed my twitter handle

YourOpinionIsNoted

Brilliant email - every salient point made in a clear and concise way.

Will be interested to see what their reply is.

My understanding is that FB is the platform that most of the M&S demographic use. I have one but don't really use it, but don't mind doing a public post stating my intention to use men's facilities from now on and link to the article showing M&S's double standards on this issue when men felt uncomfortable with women coming into the men's changing rooms to give opinions on their partners trying on clothes. If people from here share it it won't be outing to anyone (except me, I feel a NC coming on!) and won't get us banned from any groups etc.

It seems like changing rooms are becoming mixed sex faster than toilets, is that right? I guess that makes sense as it's easier to change a changing room to mixed sex as no actual work required, you just change your policy.

Is that right or have I missed a load of businesses making toilets mixed sex also?

According to Stonewall, whose advice marks and Spencer's are following, cross dressers are very definitely trans.

Ah yes, Datun, do you think it might be useful to link to Tara Hewitt's talk once more!

For those who haven't seen it, it's worth a watch all the way through.
If you haven't got much time, start at 4.29 for Tara's comprehensive definition of trans.

And at 5.28 Tara says: you've got people that festishistically cross-dress, so they wear clothing to get a sexual desire out of that clothing of the opposite gender. Generally associated with men wearing women's underwear, erm, and women's clothing. I don't know any women that wear boxer shorts and find that sexually arousing, but if you do, that's cool

Now, each to their own in terms of what's sexually arousing. As long as it doesn't impact others, knock yourself out, as it were.

But explicitly including a sexual fetish in the trans definition?

Oppressed - for getting aroused wearing women's underwear?

Need additional healthcare provision - because you're aroused wearing women's underwear?

Discriminated by being excluded from female spaces - because you're aroused by wearing women's clothes?

Everytime I see Tara and others associating the word bigoted with people who would like to retain single-sex spaces, I think of Tara's talk.

Cross-dressers with a sexual fetish are very much trans, according to Tara.

According to Stonewall, whose advice marks and Spencer's are following, cross dressers are very definitely

So it is. All angles covered to protect men’s rights.

Grinatch brilliant idea I’m off work next Thursday, will drop off leaflets in all changing rooms including stores close to M&S ( too wimpy to hand out yet!).

youropinion that’s a fantastic email. Completely fair and relevant points.

And yes, very clear by their ‘we will deal with any inappropriate behaviour’ statement that they are willing to let women be collateral damage to their stupid policy. No intention or interest in prevention.

Just to re-iterate. I asked in M&S yesterday and was told that there are no male and female fitting rooms, they are all mixed, so you can use the fitting room you like. As I said, I don't shop in M&S much and have just cancelled my credit card however I might pop in and use the mens armed with a pile of bras etc. I do wonder if I would then be treated as if I were causing a problem, a bit like the women who used the Hampstead pools.

I do think it would be good for a big push on this over the next couple of weeks, I know people are busy but to just pop in and use the mens changing rooms. It almost feels a safer place to change as only normal men will be using them.

Agree - I'd feel safer among the men who use the men's than boundary pushing ones who use the women's.

They can't possibly deal with 'inappropriate behaviour' from autogynephiles and cross dressers.

Because they become sexually aroused at completely, normal, female behaviour.

That's the whole point.

And if they push it, by wearing over sexualised clothing, or engaging in too much 'intimate' conversation? Who the fuck is going to call that out as 'inappropriate'???

By ignoring the fact that cross dressing and AGP is a uniquely male condition, which relies on the unwitting participation of women, M and S have approved an open door policy to the exploitation of the women who use their shop and keep them in business.

It doesn't get more stupid.

Why don't these people do their research?

It really does feel deliberate. Because the solution is so simple.

A third section for trans or gender neutral customers, including cross dressing men.

Equality law, protocol, public opinion, all allows for this.

The search for a backbone continues.

They can have three changing rooms that are divided by sex. Female, male and woke.

As I said earlier in the thread, I don’t think changing rooms have ever been actually labelled men and women, it has just been understood based on the sex to whom the clothes relate, with men and women being pointed in different directions where the shop is mixed. We all do understand this. It is why you seen people waiting outside changing rooms and people coming out to show outfits to those waiting. In some, usually small, stores it is clear that the changing cubicle is unisex. It is disingenuous to suggest (if it is being suggested) that because changing rooms are not labelled they have always been unisex.

Perhaps any transperson who feels ill at ease in the changing rooms appertaining to their sex (wherever they are) should request that a member of staff personally and discreetly chaperones them whilst in there, thus ensuring their safety? Given the numbers involved, this should be feasible.

If not, then perhaps all females should request that a member of staff personally and discreetly chaperones them whilst in there, thus ensuring their safety in the new mixed sex changing areas? Given the numbers involved, this would be a nightmare.

A man who ‘feels like a woman’ does not actually change sex and literally become a woman just because that’s what he wants, no matter where he lies on the spectrum of ‘transgenderism’.

This x 1000.

No matter how much a man feels like a women they have never been a women do they just think they feel like how they think a women feels.

The chaperone idea is such a good idea. We need to ask every single time and I know I won't if I'm in my own with dc or just in my own due to time constraints.

I've just been explaining all this to my DH and he said "I will just come in with you if that's how fitting rooms will work" very noble of him and I've just explained that although it's nice of him what about the other women who are in there not married to him. He totally gets what I've been talking about now.

Respect everyone. A sentiment I agree with.

Respect everyone except women is being adopted by quite a few companies of late.

I’m not at all impressed.

Today I walked past M&S. I always pick up some lovely bits on the way home. Not any more.

I shan’t go back in until they respect me and my kind. If they want to exclude half the population then they can fill their big hobnail boots.

They may want to be woke but they need to wake up.

Just wanted to say I agree with the other comments about your email YourOpinionIsNoted it's really excellent

I tried to discuss things like this with my brother (he’s gay). He looked at me like I was a bigot. Having experienced some issues of hate he still couldn’t understand why I couldn’t let these nice transgender people into our changing rooms. He didn’t seem to understand it wasn’t the genuine transgender people that were the issue but the people who would take advantage of loopholes as they’re so desperate to get access to women that saying they’re a woman just makes life easier for them although in M&S’s case they don’t even have to do that.

Just a thought but if you have male relatives, partners or friends it might be worth suggesting they email the chair person. I’ve told my husband he should. As a father of three girls he has a duty to.

Just to re-iterate. I asked in M&S yesterday and was told that there are no male and female fitting rooms, they are all mixed, so you can use the fitting room you like. however I might pop in and use the mens armed with a pile of bras etc

OK, but how does that work - I mean how do you pop into the mens armed with a pile of bras when you've just said there's no male or female fitting rooms, they are all mixed?

Because convention means that although they are not marked as men’s or ladies, people know full well that the fitting rooms connected to the menswear section is for men, and the one in ladies and/or lingerie section is for women.

Are you really saying that you don’t know that?

Thanks, IsadoraQuagmire. I really should have referenced the source I used for the Target data but typing, formatting and copy & pasting on my phone while breastfeeding DD was hard enough as it was!

This is how it works. I spoke to two older lady sales assistants about this yesterday, neither knew about it, they had to get the manager to explain. M&S are not 'advertising' this although they are getting some publicity about it and I would bet money that most of their customers won't know about it. Most of their stores have a changing room in each department - mens, ladies, lingerie and their general customer base will carry on as normal. I would however also bet money that all the men who want to access the womens changing rooms will know about it and it will spread within their community. Given how active TRAs are they will also probably make a big show of accessing the changing rooms.

So it will work because if I am challenged by anyone, or if anyone asks the sales assistants they will be told of this policy so the word will spread further.

@YourOpinionIsNoted excellent letter. Let’s see if they have the guts to address each of those points specifically.

Happy to see M&S's share price has dropped since the news hit the media

He then said that as a member of ‘the ‘community’ ie LGBTQ+ he found my views offensive.

Let's be clear what this man finds "offensive": a woman wanting privacy from men.

Let's be clear what Marks & Spencer and other organisations are saying: women have no right to privacy OR safety.

to BickerinBrattle. Your deleted post is now all over Twitter after being shared by ReSisters, and has even been turned into a pretty pink picture of a penis .

If anyone doesn't use Twitter, please DM me if you would like a copy) of post or picture).