It's official, Marks and Spencer have fallen

[MrsSnippyPants]

I know we have 'known' this for a while, but this is now their official response. How many 'inappropriate' incidents will be necessary before they see sense?

#BoycottM&S

I bet that M&S are pursuing some sort of stonewall inspired ‘inclusivity’ award. Cheap and easy publicity to announce the policy with no investment needed and a boost in PR for a struggling company with ‘frumpy’ public image.
See also the rainbow sandwich.

Some inclusivity policy pusher will be telling management to hold the line.

Meanwhile the FWR watchers (hiya!) will be sending them much love behind the scenes (and spending zero pounds in store).

Men who insist on making women feel uncomfortable are the very men who should be excluded.

Exactly.

I'm pleased to see piers Morgan and Ricky Gervais cutting to the chase on this. Bringing in the numbers to expose the dismissal of women in the madness of this policy.
That's what's needed to get companies to sit up and take notice.
Big numbers.

Sign me up to the Fekkolites. @LordProfFekkoThePenguinPhD

DH just said to me.
We'll stop shopping there.

My DH who has been of the attitude that I'm making an unnecessary fuss about trans issues for women, may just have been peaked by M and S.

I've emailed to ask how this protects transwomen. If you don't have to justify why you feel more comfortable in the women's changing room, there's nothing to stop the same men who harass transwomen in the men's changing room from declaring that they feel more comfortable in the women's changing room and carrying on harassing in there. No need to make any attempt to present as female. I wouldn't want to be the sales assistant caught in the middle of that.

They clearly don't intervene when transwomen are being harassed in the men's changing room otherwise transwomen would feel safe using the men's changing room.

It would make so much sense just have built few Unisex or non gender spaces. Given amount of times I’m asked if I’m male female or “other” why not conform to social norms and have “other” changing room. If there are now so many people who are non Binary etc etc still doesn’t solve the problem of where they go does it.

If they find all customers are happy using new area then fine phase it in, if most people still prefer Male or female
Spaces then provide for what customers want. I can think of this and I don’t have business degree or anything. Not that hard.

Am I the only one who keeps thinking of that robot Sophia so received citizenship to Saudi Arabia and had more rights than an actual real woman?

Who received not so*

I am so sorry that my mum and grandma are no longer around.

They were feisty women who were - although they probably wouldn’t have used the word - feminists who would argue every sexist attitude and rule the fame across. They were strong and lived through wars - grandma worked in hospitals and alongside bomb disposal during ww2 and mum (as a child) saw the aftermath of air raids and soldiers returning from pow camps. The current trend of ‘women get back indoors’ would have driven them crazy.

I emailed the chairman@customersupport email address after having no response from completing an online form. I’ve included Center Parcs policy of specific single sex spaces plus mixed sex cubicles as a sensible and truly inclusive solution I.e. doesn’t exclude women from their ‘own’ spaces.

I’m already boycotting Flora and have now requested that my account is closed with M&S. I really see using our financial muscle as a way of influencing companies. We need this boycott to get on the business pages where investors and executives can see that self ID policies are a threat to the profitability of a company and far outweigh the benefits of a self ID policy.

Sainsbury’s ditto. Walked in the other day and a man was in his pants, door wide open. It was a bit of a shock and I went back as I thought I’d gone in the wrong door, I hadn’t.

there are ‘respect everyone’ signs up

I'd be tempted to take a sharpie and add
(Except women who need single sex facilities, obviously)

I have also emailed m and s I am no longer going to shop there.

Not until they change this policy.

The world had gone fucking mad.

I agree with the posters though about saying they would rather go into the men's! This raises good points

Sainsbury’s ditto. Walked in the other day and a man was in his pants, door wide open

Do Sainsbury's have gender neutral loos?

There was nothing to stop me going into the men’s in M&S yesterday - no signage or anything. Just a ‘fitting room’ sign and a young man assistant standing near the door. I’m sure if I’d just bowled past him and said nothing he couldn’t have stopped me under this policy could he? Maybe I should try it and ask where the bra fitting signs are.

Sainsbury’s changing rooms not loos.

Ah, sorry, I misunderstood!

As other have said M& S have issued an open invitation to all fetishists ( not genuine trans) to access lingerie fitting in women’s spaces.

According to Stonewall, whose advice marks and Spencer's are following, cross dressers are very definitely trans.

I’m sure if I’d just bowled past him and said nothing he couldn’t have stopped me under this policy could he? Maybe I should try it and ask where the bra fitting signs are.

Since it doesn't matter where you change, apparently, you should easily be able to ask him, four or five times to get you a different bra size, bigger cups, something more lacy, perhaps, or sturdy?

I've emailed this:

To whom it may concern,

I am deeply concerned to learn that you are now operating mixed sex changing rooms in your stores. This is an affront to the dignity of women, an attack on their right to privacy and participation in public life, and an open invitation to men who wish to sexually assault vulnerable women to do so in your changing rooms.

Please can you address the concerns as I have laid them out below.

1. Sex and gender are not the same thing and should not be conflated. Does Marks and Spencer believe that human beings can change sex?

1. The equality act lists multiple protected characteristics. Sex is one of these. Gender reassignment is one of these. Gender is not. Does Marks and Spencer recognise that the law exists to allow single sex changing areas? If so, why are you disregarding this law?

1. Many women have been victims of sexual assault. 98% of sexual assault is committed by men. Women are therefore both statistically vulnerable to sexual assault by men, and likely to have personal experience of being subjected to sexual assault by men. Does Marks and Spencer recognise that women, in a state of undress in their changing rooms, are vulnerable?

1. Mixed sex changing areas have been proven to increase sexual assaults on women and girls. In the UK, 90% of sexual assault reported in swimming and leisure facilities occur in mixed sex changing areas, despite less than half of facilities being mixed sex. In the US, retail giant Target introduced a gender inclusive changing room policy, with the following results:

Sexual incidents increased over the course of the entire timeframe. In particular,
voyeurism-related offenses (Upskirt and Peeping Tom) increased significantly after the publication of Target’s
gender-inclusion policy in April, 2016. The three-season forced-category measurement found a 2.3x increase in the
amount of upskirt incidents after the policy, and a 2.9x increase in peeping tom incidents after the policy. In a Poisson
regression, using trimesters to control for seasonal variations in offenses, the fold change in rate from the four year
pre-policy period to the post-policy period was 3.03 for Upskirt and 3.14 for Peeping Tom. Using a two year pre-policy
period, the rate change was 2.16 times for Upskirt and 2.34 times for Peeping Tom.

Were Marks and Spencer aware that mixed sex changing areas cause a significant increase in sexual assault perpetrated against women and girls when deciding to allow males into female changing rooms?

1. You repeatedly claim that your changing rooms have lockable cubicles and are therefore 'safe'. This is ridiculously easy to disprove, however, if you want we can assume this to be the case.

If lockable cubicles mean there is no need to worry about men changing next to women and can prevent all types of assault, voyeuristic and predatory behaviour, why not make - and advertise - all of your changing rooms as officially 'mixed sex'?

1. You have claimed that your staff will intervene in the event of 'inappropriate behaviour' in order to protect your female customers.

What constitutes inappropriate behaviour? (Please list.) What training have you given your staff to recognise these types of behaviours? What powers do your staff have to intervene? Have you increased your staffing of changing areas to at least two members of staff per changing area, to ensure that there is always a staff member present? (A minimum of two, to allow for one staff member to leave the changing area to find items in another size, etc.)

1. The vast majority of your customers are women. The vast majority of those female customers do not want men in their changing rooms. A tiny minority of men want to access those changing rooms, either as a result of gender dysphoria or to prey upon vulnerable women for nefarious purposes. Why is Marks and Spencer prioritising the feelings of a tiny minority of males over the feelings (and legal rights) of a huge majority of women?

1. A very small number of people are diagnosed with gender dysphoria. Many transwomen do not suffer with gender dysphoria, but instead are autogynaphiles. Does Marks and Spencer understand what autogynaphilia is? Why does Marks and Spencer believe that an autogynaphilic male deserves access to women's changing areas?

Please reply with specific reference to the above numbered points, for ease and clarity of communication.

I will be withdrawing my custom from your stores from this point in time, until there is a change in policy which grants women and girls the safety and dignity to which they are morally and legally entitled.

Sainsburys have mixed changing rooms. But they are tiny. M&S ones are cavernous and imo abuse therefore far easier. Plus Sainsbury’s business model is completely different, clothes are a lucrative add on. Far fewer people trying on clothes, no personal bra fitting service etc.

mummy I know all that. My point was that M&S are responding to the line that transwomen aren't safe in the men's therefore have to have access to the women's, but their decision to put no restrictions on who can go into the women's does nothing to tackle the problem they claim they are trying to solve.

I've had an idea. I am in the US so can't do this for M & S (though I will try it at Target here.)

From the comments here, at the Times, and on Twitter, it's clear that most customers who learn of this policy dislike it and want it changed. The emails everyone has sent so far are excellent, but we need more people involved to have a bigger impact. The means more people need to learn about this policy.

Could someone with a little graphic talent put together a simple flyer with a few bullet points and quotes from the Times and the M & S Chairman responses? Something like:

-Did you know M & S have just made all their fitting rooms, including the bra fitting room, mixed-sex?

-When the US chain Target implemented a similar policy, incidences of voyeurism and other sexual offenses doubled or tripled : www.womanmeanssomething.com/targetstudy

-M & S have responded to concerns about the safety of women and girls by saying that they will "deal with" [sorry I don't have the real quote in front of me right now] any "inappropriate behavior" should it arise. This is not good enough. M & S should design policies to PREVENT assault and voyeurism, not simply respond when the damage is done.

-Women, girls, boys and men ALL deserve privacy and dignity while undressed.

-M & S could have chosen to offer mixed-sex options alongside traditional male and female fitting rooms. They have chosen instead to offer no choice, and impose mixed-sex rooms on all customers.

-If you'd like to share your thoughts on this new policy, email [M &S address] or write [M & S address.]

[quotes from Times and M & S email]

Lots of women could print out a stack at home and take to the local M & S to distribute to customers. I would approach women shoppers (I'm sure the Muslim women customers especially would like to know about this change) but also couples and older men. Many, many decent men are commenting on the Ricky Gervais and Piers Morgan tweets. They are onside and sadly, their voices carry more weight than ours.

Of course you'll probably be asked to leave eventually, but not before spreading the word to people who will then chat about it at home or the pub or hair salon...

Whaddaya say, Real Fanny Fighters? Who's game?