I Believe Her

[Brittany2019]

This is disappointing :

So we get the situation and struggle of black women used to justify MTF trans inclusion in the category women, and now we have the deaths of young black men being wheeled out as a shield against women noticing the obvious, that males of every group imaginable are the violent sex.

I seem to remember that there were two world wars last century started by white men, where white men killed millions of people, including young white men killing young white men. I'd have thought it was white men who were overrepresetnted in the murder/killing stakes, but Powerflowerrr thinks differently.

There was also the genocide of Africans by white men in the slave trade and the genocide of native Americans by white men when they colonised North America. It's funny how those slaughters are never racialised or found useful as a tool to defend males in female spaces.

Clue Powerflowerr: it's men's sex that makes them violent, not their race.

Well, then I guess you'd better go and set them up then.
That is exactly what we did.
Men are now taking them away from us, as history teaches they always do.
Men nailed a dead rat to the door as a warning.
Male violence is the greatest human rights crisis the world has ever known.

Power seriously go and read a bit more. Coming on her me with “ I do t know the background” and “I can’t be arsed to look it up”.

So you come with only have the story. And you hold a position that isn’t possible. How can you be against self ID but support TW in female spaces. Self ID is the reason they can access them and one of the main arguments against them.

@GColdtimer So you tolerate abusive name calling because it’s close to their heart but not reasoned debate. Give me a break. This is pretty close to all our hearts. The fact you are supportive of someone who will use hate speech against women in this way yet ban someone who shared the FOVAS report is utterly beyond me.

Agree. I am weary and fed up of the whole trans debate, and how they seem to get priority for feeling "different" ... more so when I found out that my dd's ex friend (who is trans FtM) a few months ago tried to convince my asd dd that she is trans too because she likes "boys toys". They were both 10, and said ex friend tried to persuade my dd to transition with her, told her to keep it all a secret from me. Said person is now harassing my dd as she refused to transition, and they are no longer friends. Yet school is telling MY child to leave ex friend alone. Again, priority even when bullying.

Still, easier to live with lies about my dd than the truth about ex-friend.

Because I agree with some points put forward by both sides, my views don't always align 100% with either.

Both TW and natal women need support, and there are additionally some women who require dedicated support. I think it's wrong to withdraw funding from services who want to focus on the latter, but on the other hand why shouldn't individual organisations provide services to both if that is their wish - there are undoubtedly some women who wouldn't have an issue being around trans individuals so it will work in some cases.

It may be the case that women who want segregated spaces have to fight for them in the same way that trans people will need to fight for third spaces in terms of toilets etc, but I don't profess to know the answer - just that individual organisations shouldn't be blocked or castigated for their choices/beliefs in who they treat.

It is painful for survivors of rape to see Women are rapists too! on a support site of all places. And to see it defended by admin. WTF!?

Society is so cruel to survivors of rape. To see that cruelty in this space as well, hurts even more.

99% of sexual offenders are male. In the UK, 100% of rapists are male (rape under UK law = using a penis)... Why is a support site for rape survivors telling women they are rapists too!? It is incorrect (in the UK) and I don’t even get the rationale.

I am mindful though that every comment here will probably only entrench Frothy in her position though.

But trans people (activists?) don’t want third spaces in terms if toilets, etc. PowerFlowerrr they want female spaces to validate their erm, femaleness. What they are fighting for is our single sex spaces.

@PowerFlowerrr - Both TW and natal women WOMEN. No need for natal or cis. We have been WOMEN for centuries, we do not need to change that because people want to hijack the meaning.

But power what you are failing to understand is that many of those services are being forced to include males in their provision. They are threatened with having their funding removed if they don’t. And women who are uncomfortable/traumatised by sharing spaces with males are told to go elsewhere. Women fought tooth and nail for those spaces. In Vancouver the brave women who ran that centre drew a line and was viciously art attacked. So don’t pretend this is a “choice” for some of these services.

Have you read the FOVAS report? I would imagine not.

This is not just any old “individual organisation” (although it is painful when those block rape survivors seeking clarity too, while allowing “T**F” comments to remain (as happened here)).

This particular page built on a campaign started on Mumsnet, including adapting its slogan

People involved in that campaign are now blocked and banned while the person calling them T**Fs is not.

It’s painful and I hope people are okay. Solidarity to all 💚💜

Yeah and get telt with natal, c*s, biological and anything else.

We are women. Mary Mother of God.

Fucking hell the racism !!!!!!!

STOP using Black people as a crutch for your weak arguments.

STOP it.

Organisations started by rad fems, campaigns built on radical feminist politics, all supposed to roll over and let males in because? Because Powerflowerr says so. No.

Also interesting to see Powerflowerr drop that bit of racism in and now completely ignore any responses to it after claiming they couldn’t be bothered to provide statistics. I thought it was supposed to be TERFs who were the racists. Maybe not.

Thing is, people's use of class analysis isn't always consistent. For example, I've seen loads of threads on here literally titled "I hate men", but you'd be called racist if you started one called "I hate black people", or seemingly even for discussing statistics - ONS data shows that black people are "overrepresented at every stage of the criminal justice system" (their words). 🤷‍♀️

ONS data shows that black people are "overrepresented at every stage of the criminal justice system"

Are you suggesting this means black people commit more crimes?

BAME people are more likely to be in social classes whose crimes are actually punished and also more likely to be overrepresented due to institutional racism.

But good attempt at using black people to disrupt the thread from the subject in hand.

That’s because the justice system is racist, not because black people are more criminal than white people as you’re suggesting. On the other hand men are vastly more criminal than women, especially when it comes to violence and sex crimes.

Your disingenuous schtick is making me feel a bit ill. Claims about ‘I hate men’ are such a giveaway if the racism wasn’t bad enough.

You also don’t understand class analysis. It’s the examination of oppression through the lens of class. Men/males are not oppressed because of their sex.

Frothydragon needs to change the name of her page to I believe her because of radical feminist analysis. Then have a little think about that.

Flowerr

Thing is, people's use of class analysis isn't always consistent. For example, I've seen loads of threads on here literally titled "I hate men"

Christ on a bike. Doesn't even have the faintest idea what class analysis is and presumes to lecture on it.

I've seen loads of threads on here literally titled "I hate men"

I did some research for you Powerflowerrr as you're apparently incapable. It seems there are only two threads on mumsnet with "I hate men" in the title, one in lone parents and the other in relationships. The second one titled "I hate men. sorry" (some nice feminine conditioning there).

Why are you telling fibs? For what purpose? Or have you mixed us up with another website?

Lots of women profess to "hate men" because men they love/have loved treat them very badly.

However, men are at little risk from this so called hatred - women are very much at risk from sexual harassment, violence and voyeurism, from men - both the ones they love, and strangers.

Is someone seriously thinks that class analysis is a synonym of making generalisations I think we can safely discount what they say.

This is so disappointing and sad.

Another post on the page today regarding recording “gender” of rapists by police. The comments!! frothy has lost the complete run of herself.

To be very fair to frothy, she has at least pointed out that it causes further trauma to victims.

It's a shame it's not extended across all of this as obviously any victim of such a crime will struggle to simply merrily say twaw. That's not to say all tw are abusive; it's just still part of the same lie to declare twaw.

Cognitive dissonance.