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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Should transgender women be allowed to play women's sports?

229 replies

andyoldlabour · 17/10/2019 15:41

Well, obviously we have pretty much one set of views on that, but this video from the US shows both sets of views, and intelligence wise I know which side I am supporting.

OP posts:
ToffeeApple24 · 18/10/2019 10:59

No, because it endangers an entire group of people.

You don't get to choose to disgaree with peoples' existence.

Its a non-issue. The trans community are not a danger to women.

ToffeeApple24 · 18/10/2019 11:01

In 2017, advocates tracked at least 29 deaths of transgender people in the United States due to fatal violence, the most ever recorded. These victims were killed by acquaintances, partners and strangers, some of whom have been arrested and charged, while others have yet to be identified. Some of these cases involve clear anti-transgender bias. In others, the victim’s transgender status may have put them at risk in other ways, such as forcing them into homelessness.

While the details of these cases differ, it is clear that fatal violence disproportionately affects transgender women of color, and that the intersections of racism, sexism, homophobia and transphobia conspire to deprive them of employment, housing, healthcare and other necessities, barriers that make them vulnerable.

As is too often the case in the reporting of anti-transgender violence, many of these victims are misgendered in local police statements and media reports, which can delay our awareness of deadly incidents. In the pursuit of greater accuracy and respect for transgender and gender expansive people in both life and death, HRC offers guidelines for journalists and others who report on transgender people.

Sadly, 2018 has already seen at least 26 transgender people fatally shot or killed by other violent means. As HRC continues to work toward justice and equality for transgender people, we mourn those we have lost:

Christa Leigh Steele-Knudslien, 42, was found dead in her home on January 5 in North Adams, Massachusetts. Steele-Knudslien organized and produced the Miss Trans New England and other pageants, and was loved and known by many in both the local and national trans community.
Viccky Gutierrez, 33, a transgender woman from Honduras was stabbed and had her body set ablaze inside her Los Angeles home on January 10. Friends described her as “a young trans Latina immigrant woman whose warm smile would give anyone comfort.” 
Celine Walker, 36, was fatally shot in a hotel room on on February 4 in Jacksonville, Florida. It was not known for several days that Walker was trans because local police claimed to not refer to victims as transgender. Investigators are still looking for a suspect in her death.
Tonya Harvey, 35, was fatally shot on February 6 in Buffalo, New York. A friend of Harvey’s expressed her condolences on Facebook, writing: “I knew her since I started transitioning, she was so sweet and loving.” Police have confirmed they are looking into the incident as a possible hate crime. 
Zakaria Fry, 28, went missing in New Mexico in mid-January. Her body was later found 40 miles outside of Albuquerque on February 19. Albuquerque Police arrested and charged Charles Spiess with two open counts of murder. Fry's loved ones shared condolences on Facebook with one friend saying: "You were my older sister. You took care of me and loved me like family. I’ll forever love you. I’m sorry.”
Phylicia Mitchell, 45, was shot and killed outside her home on February 23 in Cleveland, Ohio. On April 10, Cleveland.com reported that a warrant has been issued for the arrest of Gary Sanders. Sanders was charged with aggravated murder in Mitchell's death. Her longtime partner, Shane Mitchell, described her as "funny and kind" and that "everyone loved her."
Amia Tyrae Berryman, 28, was fatally shot at a local motel on March 26 in Baton Rouge, Louisiana. Few details are known about the crime, and police report they have no suspects or persons of interest at this time.
Sasha Wall, 29, a transgender woman of color, was fatally shot on April 1 in Chesterfield County, South Carolina. The FBI is assisting with local investigators, and are analyzing phone records and collecting DNA evidence. Donovan Dunlap, a friend of Wall’s, expressed condolences on Facebook, writing, “I will miss you my beautiful sister. I cannot sleep, I hope they find who did this.” 
Karla Patricia Flores-Pavón, 26, was found choked to death in her apartment in Dallas, Texas, on May 9. Dallas Police arrested 24-year-old Jimmy Eugene Johnson III on May 17, charging him with Flores-Pavón’s murder. "It hurts a lot, you were a good-hearted person. Sister, fly high. We will remember you with love. Your beautiful smile will stay with us,” a friend posted on her Facebook page.
Nino Fortson, 36, was fatally shot in Atlanta on May 13. City police were nearby executing a traffic stop and rushed to the scene, but Forston later died at the hospital, said transgender advocate Monica Roberts.
Gigi Pierce, 28, was fatally shot on May 21 in Portland, Oregon. When officers arrived they tried to administer aid, but Pierce died at the scene. Police investigators say they believe that Pierce was shot during an altercation with Sophia Adler, who has been charged with Pierce’s murder, according to KGW-TV.
Roxana Hernández, 33, passed away on May 25 while in the custody of U.S. Immigration and Customs Enforcement (ICE) after fleeing violence and discrimination in Honduras. After an autopsy report strongly indicated Hernández was beaten in ICE custody before her death, the agency is falsely claiming its press release announcing her death constitutes its report and is disputing the accuracy of eyewitness accounts of abuse from detainees held with her in custody prior to her death.
Antash'a English, 38, was fatally injured in drive-by shooting in Jacksonville, Florida on June 1. On her Facebook page, English described herself as an “independent” transgender woman who “thrives on being the best person” she can be. The Jacksonville Sheriff’s Office has declared an active murder investigation and asks anyone with information to contact their office.
Diamond Stephens, 39, was found shot to death on June 18 in Meridian, Mississippi. In interviews with a local television station, family members said that Stephens had an “incredible personality.” As is too often the case in the reporting of anti-transgender violence, Stephens was originally misgendered in local police statements and media reports, which delayed our awareness of this deadly incident.
Cathalina Christina James, 24, was fatally shot in Jacksonville, Florida, on June 24. In an interview with First Coast News, James’ mother described her daughter as having a “big and bold” personality, saying she loved to dance and travel. James is the third transgender woman murdered and the fourth shot in the Florida city this year.
Keisha Wells, 54, was found dead with a gunshot wound to her abdomen in the parking lot of an apartment complex on June 24, according to Cleveland.com. A longtime friend of Wells described her as “the nicest person ever” but also a “tough cookie.”
Sasha Garden, 27, was found dead with signs of trauma in Orlando, Florida, early July 19. Originally from Wisconsin, Garden is remembered by loved ones as a “firecracker” who “didn’t hold anything back.” Friend and local transgender activist Mulan Montrese Williams recalls that Garden was a talented and aspiring hair stylist and had been saving money to fund her transition.
Vontashia Bell, 18, was fatally shot on August 30 in a neighborhood of Shreveport, Lousiana. The Louisiana Trans Advocates organization released a statement condemning the shooting and calling on the city’s leaders to help curb the violence against the trans community.
Dejanay Stanton, 24, was found with a fatal gunshot wound to the head on August 30, according to media reports. After an autopsy, her death was ruled a homicide and the investigation is ongoing. “Every time you saw her she had a smile on her face," said LaSaia Wade, executive director of Brave Space Alliance. “She was just trying to live her best life as a young girl.”
Shantee Tucker, 30, was found with a fatal gunshot wound in the back in Philadelphia, Pennsylvania, on Sept. 5. Friends and family honored her life and mourned her death on Facebook, recalling that she was like “another big sister” to them and remembering her “beautiful spirit and fun aura.”
Londonn Moore, 20, was found dead of multiple gunshot wounds in a remote area of North Port, Florida on Sept. 8. Moore is remembered by her family and other loved ones, who described her as “hilarious” and someone who “made everyone laugh all the time.”
Nikki Enriquez, 28, was one of four women killed in Sept. in what local officials describe as a “serial killing spree” allegedly carried out by an intel supervisor for the U.S. Border Patrol. Enriquez, who also went by the name Janelle, is survived by numerous loved ones that were “sad and in disbelief” at her death. Cousin Veronica Castillo described her as a “very outgoing” person who loved to party and was beloved by the local LGBTQ community.
Ciara Minaj Carter Frazier, 31, was fatally stabbed and her body left behind an abandoned building by a man with whom she was arguing on October 3 in Chicago. As reported in the Sun Times, Chicago police declared Frazier’s death a homicide after appearing on the scene. She is remembered by friends and loved ones, who said that she will “always be missed.”
Regina Denise Brown, 53, a trans woman of color, was found dead in her burning home in South Carolina on October 7. Authorities charged Jenkins with murder in November after he confessed to killing Brown during a physical altercation. Brown was described as a “great lady with a big heart” to PinkNews. 
Tydi Dansbury, 37, a Black transgender woman, was fatally shot in Baltimore on November 26. Few details are known about the circumstances of her death, and the Baltimore Police Department is urging anyone with information to come forward.
Keanna Mattel, 35, a Black transgender woman, was fatally shot in Detroit, Michigan on December 7. In 2015, Mattel, who also went by the name Kelly Stough, spoke against anti-trans violence epidemic, noting that “police are unaware with our struggle so they have no sympathy for us.”  Friends remember Mattel as “a sweetheart and beautiful character.”

In addition to the cases above, HRC is deeply concerned about another incident which we are following closely. On July 19, 30-year-old Jessie Sumlar was found stabbed to death in Jacksonville, Florida. According to loved ones, Sumlar regularly performed in drag and identified as queer. HRC calls for further investigation into the causes of Sumlar's death, including whether discriminatory bias toward transgender and/or gender non-conforming people played a motivating factor.

In November of 2018, HRC Foundation released "A National Epidemic: Fatal Anti-Transgender Violence in America in 2018," a heartbreaking report honoring the at least 22 transgender people killed in 2018 and detailing the contributing and motivating factors that lead to this tragic violence.

ToffeeApple24 · 18/10/2019 11:02

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aliasundercover · 18/10/2019 11:02

Why do I care?

I'm a hug sports fan. I watch and participate in lots of sport.

One of my particular favourites is cycling. I like to watch the best in each category - men, juniors, seniors ... and yes, even women.

What I don't want to do is watch the best men, then watch a bunch of mediocre men who were not good enough to qualify.

aliasundercover · 18/10/2019 11:04

Just keep your opinions to yourself

Women! Know your limits! Don't worry your pretty little head about things that concern you - leave the men to sort it out.

sue51 · 18/10/2019 11:05

No. I am the mother of a rugby playing woman and the thought of her being tackled by a male bodied opponent fills me fear.

Waterl00 · 18/10/2019 11:06

You don't get to choose to disgaree with peoples' existence.

Of course we do. If you get to show up here disagreeing with the existence of female as a category that excludes males then cleary we have the reciprocal choice to disagree with you.

Do try to be less intolerant of other peoples opions.

Michelleoftheresistance · 18/10/2019 11:07

You seem perfectly happy to disagree with women's right to existence as a sex class, their right to sporting classes, their equal right to identify themselves - you are in fact insisting that women (and you do mean people born with XX chromosomes, you're quite clear on who has to be the obedient/submissive women and who are the women you want prioritised, you see the difference just fine) surrender their rights and needs to wholly prioritise people born male.

This is nothing more than massive sexism.

Women wanting to retain their sex based rights have absolutely nothing to do with that tragic list you shared, and it would be just as easy to pull up the equally tragic lists of women who are killed at a rate of 3 a week in the UK alone. There are solutions that meet everyone's needs, the trampling of women as a sex class is not a just or necessary measure. The right to freedom of belief is also a human right.

Oliversmumsarmy · 18/10/2019 11:08

We have male and female sports for a reason.

You can do any number of outer body modifications but your internals are still male or female.

ToffeeApple24 · 18/10/2019 11:09

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YouJustDoYou · 18/10/2019 11:10

your attitudes allow this stuff (murder of mtf transwomen) to go on. Just keep your opinions to yourself. Your male partner is a bigger threat to you than a trans woman

Yes, it's all women's fault as usual that men are the ones who kills transgender women. How dare we try and speak up for our fellow females? We should all just shut up and let men do whatever they want. #sarcasm btw.

ToffeeApple24 · 18/10/2019 11:11

@YouJustDoYou transwomen are women.

Michelleoftheresistance · 18/10/2019 11:11

If your feminism doesn't centre women then it isn't actually feminism at all, love.

Thanks for the demo of ageism and disablism on top of the misogyny and sexism, all of which are always so visible from people representing this side of the debate.

LordProfFekkoThePenguinPhD · 18/10/2019 11:12

‘You mad arl bats’ 🙄

ToffeeApple24 · 18/10/2019 11:12

@michelleoftheresistance transwomen are women

GrouchyKiwi · 18/10/2019 11:12

Stating that transwomen - who are biologically male - should not take part in women's sport doesn't deny their existence.

People always use this argument, as if that's what the issue is. You're deflecting from the actual problem to make it seem like people who support sex segregation in sport are just bigots. It's utterly disingenuous.

ToffeeApple24 · 18/10/2019 11:13

I didn't say women are responsible for what men do

However, this vile spew of hatred causes violence against the trans community. Whether that hatred comes from men or women. You are culpable.

willloman · 18/10/2019 11:13

No

ToffeeApple24 · 18/10/2019 11:14

Trans women are women

GrouchyKiwi · 18/10/2019 11:14

Most people learn as children that repeating something over and over again doesn't make it true.

ArnoldWhatshisknickers · 18/10/2019 11:15

We have male and female sports for a reason

Absolutely. The physiological differences between men and women are enormous and no amount of artificial hormones or surgeries changes that one iota.

Men have not only greater testosterone levels but greater muscle mass, bone density (which is protected by taking oestrogen), stronger ligaments, greater lung capacity and oxygenation rates, larger hearts, massively greater grip strength. I could go on, but all decent people understand that XY people have insurmountable physical advantages over women that render their barging into women's sport a far more egregious form of cheating than any performance enhancing drug.

ErrolTheDragon · 18/10/2019 11:15

transwomen are women.

And you are defining 'women' how, exactly?
How is a person who has been through male puberty and has male physique in any way a woman in the context of women's sports? Do you not understand the difference between sex and gender?

JoyceJeffries · 18/10/2019 11:15

So women should budge up, shut up, lose our rights, our dignity because men (as a class) are violent?

What a load of fucking horse shit.

neverornow · 18/10/2019 11:15

No

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