Trans chat

[Babyjakesmum]

I haven't been on Mumsnet in a while, but have dropped back in to see what was going on when I heard about the sponsors dropping Mumsnet because of anti-trans hate. I expected it to be a storm in a tea cup.

But sadly, I have to say that I find the level of bitter hatred on here to be utterly breathtaking. I have trans people in my family. I have friends who have trans people, and the way they are being discussed here is simply appalling.

Being trans isn't something anyone takes lightly, or lives lightly either. It's is not mental illness, it is not an excuse to abuse children, it is not a passing fad. It is bloody hard on those who find themselves in that situation, and this sort of hate-fest of ignorance and accusation only makes their lives even harder.

I used to come on here to talk about my babies and life as a Mum, and it was supportive and safe space for me to talk openly about my feelings and experiences. It no longer feels safe for anyone. I don't think I will be coming back to be a regular again. I cannot comprehend what has become of the people on here for this level of narrow mindedness to be flourishing.

Make no mistake, I am an old school, campaigning, hard-bitten feminist, and have been since before half the people on here were born. I understand the feminist anti-trans arguments but I find all of it to be empty of any basis in reality. Trans people aren't lurking in changing rooms, trans people aren't after your kids or trying to undermine your own femininity. They are having a very hard time in life.

I know you can cite a handful of examples, but then there are always a handful of example of anything. One Karen White does not mean you write off all trans-people as criminals.

I would say to you to get to know an actual transperson and see what the reality is, except that I wouldn't want any vulnerable person subjected to this.... you also probably do already know a transperson somewhere in your life, but most don't wear a badge to tell you that because it's actually none of your business what clothes or pronouns someone chooses to use.

most people are not even aware of Mumsnet

Awww. Did the Upfield thing slap the genderists in the face with a wet fish? Did Justine refuse to tighten the scolds bridle? Is the only thing left to flood FWR with ad hominem, hyperbole and demands to perform female socialisation?

Diddums.

Mumsnet remains one of the very few places in which people can gather to discuss and debate this most important issue.

And that's why it's so important for TRA's to close it down.

One of the most frightening parts is how much of it is based upon misinformation or arguments that take one example of a person's unpardonable behaviour as being somehow indicative of a whole group of people

The issue is one of first order principles, not specific individuals.

@MNHQ OP has made the claim that someone told her to "kill yourself".

The only deleted posts I can see are from FWR regulars, many of whom I have "known" for a long time, who I do not believe would say such a thing. @MNHQ are in a position to see the deleted threads. Could you confirm whether

1. one of the deleted posts did indeed say "kill yourself", in which case could you also confirm that the poster in question has been banned, as indeed they should be, if they actually said this?

2. whether OP is in fact grossly exaggerating what was said to her? In which case the post should be deleted.

3. whether (charitably) it is in fact a misunderstanding (for instance, someone saying "if you said XYZ on twitter, you'd be told by TRAs to 'kill yourself/die in a grease fire/etc.'", and OP has somehow misunderstood that to mean the imperative rather than subjunctive, and also somehow misunderstood it to be directed at her personally."

It seems to me that OP's accusation is a very serious one, so (partly in the interests of ensuring that the MN moderating policy is being adhered to) I'd like to know whether that accusation is true, or whether it's groundless.

Barbara

Report your own post and ask for clarification, HQ have a better chance of seeing it than tagging them.

One Karen White does not mean you write off all trans-people as criminals.

Nobody’s writing all men off as anything. But because the statistics show that most - not all, most - sexual & violent offenders are male & most victims are female, where women might be vulnerable we have single sex spaces for privacy and safety.

Ruth Hunt of Stonewall’s view on this was a dismissive ‘Men are always going to rape women’ so our concerns about gender ID are irrelevant. Does that seem a reasonable view to you, Babyjakesmum and Hypatia?

Yes @MNHQ for the avoidance of any doubt, and to prevent it becoming a stick to beat MN with, could you confirm if a poster was told to 'kill themself'?

There are more than enough falsehoods and rumours being perpetuated about this board, so it would be good if we could either be able to denounce it as a lie, or that the poster who said it was banned.

Please, for the love of God, tell me that the OP wasn't claiming that the 1968 playground jibe of go take a long walk off a short pier, was an exhortation to kill herself.

And was it only my brother who regularly added, preferably in shark infested waters?

Well said, BabyJakesMum.

The tedious predictability of people coming here complaining about tone, undercurrent, volume. Shhh. Women mustn't talk for long, and clearly mustn't talk at such volume, or in such quantity. And the sheer number of threads! Don't create such a commotion. It looks bad, it feels wrong.

None of these ploppers actually asserts that rapists should be in women's prisons, or men allowed to beat women at sport, or that 10-year-old girls should be disrobing in front of middle aged men. They certainly never debate the mounting evidence of the dangers of puberty blockers and cross sex hormones.

They don't ever specifically address any points. Just hush.

It's extraordinary watching people desperately trying to maintain some kind of credibility by non engagement whilst simultaneously, furiously dismantling women's rights.

Personally, if you don't engage, I consider your argument misogynistic by default.


It's quite simple in my opinion.
In my quite vast experience there are different types of trans people. The AGP type is taking over. These womens experience is valid. I just dont think there is enough research. And there never will be. Because AGP will continue to use the trans umbrella and muddy the waters.

Dont dismiss these womens experience OP. The type of people they write about exists. And they're damaging to everyone, women, girls and actual trans people. This forum of course, is primarily for the discussion of womens rights in the original (and current) dictionary definition of the word women. These women would receive similar short shrift if they joined trans support groups to discuss this with. And no one should have the power to shut down lawful non violent engagement.

"take-a-long-walk-on-a-short-pier. Verb. (idiomatic, pejorative, colloquial) Used to tell someone to go away, or that their request will not be met."

According to Google, a definition shared by many online dictionaries and indeed, the meaning I'd always attached to it.

It would be odd if anyone interpreted it any other way.

Could you clear up the confusion, OP?

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA.

Is get in the sea also a threat to kill?

It's why MN has the very handy acronym FOTTFSOFAWYGTFOSM.

There would be none of this confusion then.

Hard bitten feminists can be surprisingly sensitive.

Is the OP who reported very young? I ask because I suppose it’s possible they’ve never heard ‘long walk on a short pier’ and are taking it literally to it’s ultimate conclusion... Thing is, ‘kill yourself’ is very much a thing among the bright young things on social media and some use it to bully, we know TRAs certainly mean it when addressing ‘Terfs’ as in “die in a grease fire”. But as I understand it (I’m officially from the Jurassic era) speaking to teens of my acquaintance for the most part it doesn’t mean literally ‘kill yourself’ - it’s more you have socially embarrassed yourself so badly - done or said or worn something so uncool - you’ll never live it down.

noooooo? that isn't really what OP meant, when she said someone had told her to kill herself??! surely not?

*Its ultimate conclusion - its! Aaargh!

I find it hard to believe that is what OP is refering to. however, if it IS, I think it's a useful thing to reflect on. there really ISNT the barrage of aggressive/hateful comments on MN as is accused. Misrepresentation is really obstructive. I wish that it would stop happening and I wish OP et Al would engage with the actual points raised. Such as, to begin with; the medicalisation of gender non-conforming CHILDREN with pharmaceuticals that are being used off-licence; in conjunction with the misrepresentation of suicide statistics which are in contravention of Samaritans ethical suicide reporting guidelines

Is the OP who reported very young?

Apparently not. OP describes herself as "an old school, campaigning, hard-bitten feminist, and have been since before half the people on here were born."

I'm also from the Jurassic era, in common with many other posters on here, so presumably OP is from the era before that.

Piers have been around a long time too, even short ones.

I've just flicked back on this thread, and there are loads of deletions!!

I read the thread, and there was absolutely nothing delete worthy, at all. What the hell is going on?

Can those who have been deleted shed any light on this?

I managed to read the posts before they were deleted and I'm also surprised. However - and this could be just my imagination - although FWR has always been a target, it seems to be getting fairly heavy attention at the moment. A PP referred to the increasing need to make linguistic contortions just to communicate effectively and it seems to me that even those contortions are no longer enough.

The phrase take a long walk off a short pier really isn't something to be deleted.

How do these people get up in the morning?

Can those who have been deleted shed any light on this?

I think* some of the posts implied they thought the OP was a man? Or made certain claims about the OPs posting history. Probably gone under the "not in the spirit" rule.

*Disclaimer I really don't have the best memory