Trans chat

[Babyjakesmum]

I haven't been on Mumsnet in a while, but have dropped back in to see what was going on when I heard about the sponsors dropping Mumsnet because of anti-trans hate. I expected it to be a storm in a tea cup.

But sadly, I have to say that I find the level of bitter hatred on here to be utterly breathtaking. I have trans people in my family. I have friends who have trans people, and the way they are being discussed here is simply appalling.

Being trans isn't something anyone takes lightly, or lives lightly either. It's is not mental illness, it is not an excuse to abuse children, it is not a passing fad. It is bloody hard on those who find themselves in that situation, and this sort of hate-fest of ignorance and accusation only makes their lives even harder.

I used to come on here to talk about my babies and life as a Mum, and it was supportive and safe space for me to talk openly about my feelings and experiences. It no longer feels safe for anyone. I don't think I will be coming back to be a regular again. I cannot comprehend what has become of the people on here for this level of narrow mindedness to be flourishing.

Make no mistake, I am an old school, campaigning, hard-bitten feminist, and have been since before half the people on here were born. I understand the feminist anti-trans arguments but I find all of it to be empty of any basis in reality. Trans people aren't lurking in changing rooms, trans people aren't after your kids or trying to undermine your own femininity. They are having a very hard time in life.

I know you can cite a handful of examples, but then there are always a handful of example of anything. One Karen White does not mean you write off all trans-people as criminals.

I would say to you to get to know an actual transperson and see what the reality is, except that I wouldn't want any vulnerable person subjected to this.... you also probably do already know a transperson somewhere in your life, but most don't wear a badge to tell you that because it's actually none of your business what clothes or pronouns someone chooses to use.

And the 100+ replies I have had to 2 and now 3 posts, have just proved my point.

Of all the arguments these ploppers always use, the one where they criticise people just for having the audacity to reply to them is the most bemusing.

It's about now that the filibusters usually turn up, but this thread could be a bit early for the weekend filibuster. We shall see.

My post was deleted for a joke about One Who Shall Not Be Named.

What a silly statement. Many people here have trans family member, trans friends or trans workmates. Stop “othering” trans people like they are not throughout society like anyone else.

I noticed OP hasn’t responded to my screenshot, maybe you would?

(That was to Hypatia, who hopefully can clarify support for these women wanting a return to female-only incarceration)

One of the most frightening parts is how much of it is based upon misinformation or arguments that take one example of a person's unpardonable behaviour as being somehow indicative of a whole group of people.

It's not that anyone thinks individual unpardonable behaviour is indicative of the whole group. It's that all manner of unpardonable behaviour is actually very much pardonable and almost always goes unchecked and even celebrated in some cases.

Combine that with terrible policy decisions that favour those who wish to get away with the unpardonable and you end up with the current shit show that many women are understandably very angry about.

Trans inmate can choose the sex of the person they bunk with, who searches them and watches them. Female inmates do not.

Mother and child units are housing convicted sex offenders, who become TW (no hormones, no surgery) post conviction.

Look where children come:

@2bthatunnoticed We need to have a discussion about prison reform which protects vulnerable women from abusers.

Focusing on an element of abusers other than their their behaviour, and extending that to all other people who share that attribute, seems a poor way to address systemic problems.

We need to have a discussion about prison reform which protects vulnerable women from abusers.

I suggest the discussion goes as follows:

"Shall we keep male people out of female prisons? Yes? Good, all agreed. Right moving on to the next agenda item...."

Ookkaaay

It seems Hypatia415 is in favour of mixed sex prisons

Interesting position

Would you care to explain why you think that’s a good idea Hypatia415 v

Hypatia do you agree with recording male crimes as female crimes?

I used mumsnet on and off when my children were small. Then, saw the odd post about trans stuff and decided to take a look at the feminist chat thread. Never had done before, but wondered what the “transphobia” was about.

Bit shocked at first as I didn’t have a clue about the GRA and proposed changes. Started to read up on issues, joined Twitter saw the hatred directed towards anyone who didn’t believe TWAW - literally. Saw the extended definition of trans. Not the gender dysphoric transexual that I had always supported, but any male who said he felt like a woman. I realised the implications and found it terrifying. There is a MASSIVE increase in trans identifying males in prison for example - that’s HO stats. There is a MASSIVE increase in children identifying as trans - again stats from GIDS confirm this. It is NOT exaggeration. And a THIRD of the girls who trans are autistic. That is REALLY concerning.

You tell us we should get to know trans people. Well I have in my life, and I’ve no issue with a dysphoric adult transitioning. I have respected pronouns, and treated trans people the same way as I treat any person. Maybe YOU should get to know a few autistic girls, see how they think, see how hard it is for them to cope with the changes of puberty and then see celebration when they decide they’re a boy because maybe then they will “fit in”, and get better.

Yes, at the moment, most of us can change in a changing room without the presence of a trans woman next to us, but the rate at which this cultural shift is progressing means that there will be more and more cases of cameras in unisex loos, assaults on women in prisons, trans women winning in women’s sports events. And just women feeling uncomfortable, unsafe and vulnerable in their previously women only spaces. As it is people are losing jobs for merely stating biological reality.

I think if, OP you think that any of our concerns to be “empty of any basis in reality”, you simply aren’t very well-informed. Or else you are and you are being disingenuous.

Wow - that is your response? Did you read that screenshot? Jesus. You are more concerned about:

(a) words exchanged between consenting adults on a forum they can leave at any time, than

(b) women being raped and having to take the morning after pill in a prison they cannot leave

it's actually none of your business what clothes or pronouns someone chooses to use.

Just picking up on this from the OP. How do you feel about situations like this when everyone is told to state their pronouns?

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3719796-how-to-ignore-pronoun-introductions-in-meeting

If it's none of our business what pronouns someone uses, isn't making people state their pronouns an invasion of privacy?

Maybe we should have a dedicated thread where examples and/or screenshots of all the horrific anti-trans hate can be posted?

After all, there is so much of it and yet examples can never be produced...

I really worry that many people are coming on to these boards with little frame of reference or knowledge about trans people and this is their introduction.

This board is full of well-informed women so it's a great place to get an introduction. They'll soon discover that children are being experimented on with untested drugs and that governments now think it's a good idea to put male sex offenders in women's prisons and men who self-identify as women in women's hospital wards.

@grimbles excellent idea

One of the most frightening parts is how much of it is based upon misinformation or arguments that take one example of a person's unpardonable behaviour as being somehow indicative of a whole group of people.

Yeah no one does that, because that would be silly, wouldn't it? The same way that we don't conclude that all men rape, because some men rape. The way we don't conclude that all men are violent, because some men are violent.

The way we didn't decide during the #MeToo campaign that it applied to all men, (although you'd be forgiven for concluding that, as it seemed to be an awful of them).

But what's really, very telling, and tedious in its prevalence, is how you can't help focusing on the men. Always and exclusively.

Why can't you ever think about the women, for a teeny, tiny change?

The fact that 20% of us will suffer some kind of sexual assault in our life. Or that two women a week are murdered by their male partners, often after a lifetime of abuse. Or the 64% of female prison inmates who have suffered from domestic violence. How about the women in a rape refuge, who are accessing it because of male violence and sexual abuse, often with nothing more than a bin bag of toys and their children in tow.

Or how about the whopping nearly 40% of schoolgirls who have been sexually harassed in school. Or the children in school who then have to share a classroom with their rapist.

How about, for once, in your enclosed hermetically sealed, misogynistic bubble, deciding that the women and girls who suffer from all this deserve a space where they can recover or escape. Where they can breathe, talk, disrobe, or perform an intimate bodily function without fear.

Ask yourself why you are utterly incapable of thinking of these women and girls? Why they simply never enter your head. Ask yourself why, instead, you celebrate and applaud the men who insist on following these women into their spaces, and will threaten, hit, and abuse to make sure they do.

And if, if your trans friends or family respect the rights to privacy of women and girls, then you have nothing to worry about,

do you.

I looked at a thread on AIBU (I think) the other day, about the paedophile who was murdered in jail. It's been in the news too, and a very small amount of background into his crimes was included in one report I heard on the radio. It made me understand the absolute scorching loathing on that AIBU thread, and the prevalent opinion that his murder was, in many ways, a good thing.

Something that I've recently experienced (at a distance) IRL has made me very conscious of his victims. The one mentioned on the radio was a 3 year old girl. I don't know when the crimes were committed, but I'm imagining that little girl is now perhaps old enough to go into town with her friends, to the cinema, to McDonalds. Whether she's recovered enough from the trauma is another matter, but if she has, imagine how utterly appalling and terrifying it would be for her to come out of a toilet and be confronted by a male-bodied person in that space. A male-bodied person who insisted he was, in fact, a woman - contrary to the evidence of her own eyes.

I know that the person I have encountered IRL lives an extremely precarious existence, some 30 years after her horrific abuse. It has left massively debilitating mental scars and she needs to be incredibly careful about where she goes and what she does. She will never be free of it. Sometimes she can manage it, but not always. In fact, not even most of the time. If the sanctuary of female-only spaces is removed, those occasional bright days of going out and having some kind of normal life will be taken from her as well.

Sorry for the derail, but this silly parroting of 'safe spaces' in relation to an online talk forum has enraged me. As has the focus on 'being kind' to trans women, without the slightest consideration of how that 'kindness' impacts on the wellbeing of women who are far more vulnerable.

Basically, as a woman, you can have rights as long as nobody else disagrees with it. But now there's a bunch of people disagreeing with it. Women want safe male free spaces and to keep women's sports fair? Yup they're transphobic assholes. It is ridiculous.

Fair summary there.

OP: plopping a 'you're all hateful' thread on FWR and then saying that people replying in large numbers (this is a well-used forum, mostly populated by intelligent, well-read people - we're going to use our right of reply if accused of "hate") somehow proves you're right is more than a tad silly.

So Hypatia415 anything to back up 'you're all so transphobic post?' Why you think women's prisons should be mixed sex? Given 98% of sex crimes are committed by men, why maintaining sex segregation for the safety of women is a bad thing? Given that the number of Karen White cases should and was zero under sex segregated system , why is any change justified at the cost to assaults on women?
I don't expect an answer anytime soon. Until then please whine somewhere else.

"or you would see me having posted on here continually back when MN first started, so I do know how it has changed over time."

I too posted back when it was all green fields and dial-up internet access. MN has never really been a safe space. People have always disagreed with each other. Even during the SWMNBN days there were still people who started threads to say that they agreed with her and her methods.

"I know you can cite a handful of examples, but then there are always a handful of example of anything. One Karen White does not mean you write off all trans-people as criminals."

And yet you have written off an entire site with millions of users based on how many posts?

Flouncers have always been given short shrift on MN - especially when the flouncer includes a "you're all so mean!"" narrative in their posts.

My actual point in posting was about the tone of the debate on here and how damaging and harmful that is both here, to trans people in general and to the reputation of Mumsnet, which used to be such a positive environment

I agree the tone on some threads can get a little dismissive and aggressive, but then this is a public forum, with people from all backgrounds and persuasions, and with different personal styles.

I came to Mumsnet just this year - precisely for informed discussion and information on the Trans debate, as it is, for me, a hugely important issue, and has got me really fired up. not because I'm prejudiced, but because I could see, right from the off, the profound nature of what was being peddled and purported; and deeply concerned about what was going on in the name of Trans rights.

Public forums are precisely that. I'm not sure that most people are not even aware of Mumsnet, really ( I wasn't until a few months ago) - and the main protagonists tend to be trans rights activists and their allies - who regularly troll and provoke.

Mumsnet remains one of the very few places in which people can gather to discuss and debate this most important issue.