Trans chat

[Babyjakesmum]

I haven't been on Mumsnet in a while, but have dropped back in to see what was going on when I heard about the sponsors dropping Mumsnet because of anti-trans hate. I expected it to be a storm in a tea cup.

But sadly, I have to say that I find the level of bitter hatred on here to be utterly breathtaking. I have trans people in my family. I have friends who have trans people, and the way they are being discussed here is simply appalling.

Being trans isn't something anyone takes lightly, or lives lightly either. It's is not mental illness, it is not an excuse to abuse children, it is not a passing fad. It is bloody hard on those who find themselves in that situation, and this sort of hate-fest of ignorance and accusation only makes their lives even harder.

I used to come on here to talk about my babies and life as a Mum, and it was supportive and safe space for me to talk openly about my feelings and experiences. It no longer feels safe for anyone. I don't think I will be coming back to be a regular again. I cannot comprehend what has become of the people on here for this level of narrow mindedness to be flourishing.

Make no mistake, I am an old school, campaigning, hard-bitten feminist, and have been since before half the people on here were born. I understand the feminist anti-trans arguments but I find all of it to be empty of any basis in reality. Trans people aren't lurking in changing rooms, trans people aren't after your kids or trying to undermine your own femininity. They are having a very hard time in life.

I know you can cite a handful of examples, but then there are always a handful of example of anything. One Karen White does not mean you write off all trans-people as criminals.

I would say to you to get to know an actual transperson and see what the reality is, except that I wouldn't want any vulnerable person subjected to this.... you also probably do already know a transperson somewhere in your life, but most don't wear a badge to tell you that because it's actually none of your business what clothes or pronouns someone chooses to use.

babyjakes
As it happens, my personal views on trans rights are very mixed, I don't wholly ascribe to either side of it, it's a very complex issue all round, and I don't sign up to half the view points that have been ascribed to me here, but no-one actually stopped to notice that as they piled in with accusations.

This is exactly what you did to us in your opening post. You didn't stop to engage with us, you just jumped straight in with accusations and tone policing. We get that a lot here, very tiresome, so I'm sure you understand why we are suspicious. We couldn't 'stop to notice' what viewpoints you ascribe to, because the only viewpoint you showed us was you think we are not nice.

So, if you are genuine, let's get back on track with some good faith discussion. To do that, we need some common definitions, if you could try to answer the question from page 1:

"Could you explain how you interpret gender"

I'll go first, gender is the social expectations of behaviours ascribed to a person due to their sex.

Thanks for that screenshot 2BthatUnnoticed fucking hell, that won't end well.

I have looked through the replies twice now. When were you told to 'kill yourself'?!

Let me explain.
Basically women's rights are at the bottom of the list. Women are upset because women's rights and safety are being pushed aside by the trans and the I-identify-as-a-potato community. Girls and women need safe male-free spaces too deal with periods, escape from certain men in public places and escape from domestic abuse. Women should not have to compete against males in sports. There is a reason for women's sports, men have a biological advantage. I've heard of a trans women coming into the women's toilets, with their fully intact dick and raping someone.

Basically, as a woman, you can have rights as long as nobody else disagrees with it. But now there's a bunch of people disagreeing with it. Women want safe male free spaces and to keep women's sports fair? Yup they're transphobic assholes. It is ridiculous.

And come on, those who don't identify as a gender or decide they're a Nancy one day and Bill the next?! It's madness. You don't have to have 'feminine' or 'masculine' attributes, gender doesn't really matter. Boys can like barbies and girls can like cars, boys or girls can play with both. Embrace these ideas it and ignore what it has been decided girls and boys like. But to say you don't have a gender is ridiculous. You're born female or male, you remain female or male.

I firmly believe part of the problem is gender stereotypes, boys don't have long hair, boys don't like pink, boys don't play with dolls houses, boys dont cry, boys like contact sports. Girls don't get muddy, girls like fairies and princesses, girls don't play rugby, girls don't wear anything with dinosaurs or footballs on. That's boys clothing, that's girls clothing, those are boys shoes, those are girls shoes. So and so fourth. These ideas are exposed to children very young, even if it isn't from their own parents they'll hear it from their peers and it causes damage.

Oh and stating that she hasn't broken any rules on here.
Obviously we have.
Abide by the rules, ladies.

Of course we abide by the rules! That's why none of our posts make linguistic sense as we contort everything in order to hide our thoughtcrime.

Come closer OP, we have salted butter.

Thigh please don't bite op she is already hard bitten!!

And she thinks she is very old and wise! Ha!

I take my hat off to everyone who takes the time to reply to these pompous control freaks.

I couldn’t be arsed.

Wow Orchid, just like our own dear Labour Party.

#labourlosingwomen

Yes did someone actually say “ or was that hyperbole ? That would be instant permanent ban surely? Utterly bizarre

If anyone did , I condemn without reserve.

I’m wondering what sort of reaction you think you ought to get when you post a wokescolding* patronising blanket condemnation of a whole board, How would that usually go, OP? Do you find telling people that they’re hateful and stupid an effective way of engaging in productive debate?

I also don’t see where anyone told you to kill yourself, and have never seen any feminist here use that kind of language. Did anyone else see it?

thank you for that, ovahere*, I love this word! (Hope I got the right poster)

Thanks to everyone who also delights in the term wokescold. I can't claim it as my own invention (sadly I can't remember who first coined it) but it is a great word and so very befitting of those that show up here to lecture without engagement.

pompous control freaks

A very accurate description. They make me tired

So intellectually dishonest, most of all with themselves

I also don’t see where anyone told you to kill yourself, and have never seen any feminist here use that kind of language.

I have never seen anyone anywhere on MN write that, and I have been using this site for many years now. However "kys" is a standard TRA twitter insult.

l also don’t see where anyone told you to kill yourself, and have never seen any feminist here use that kind of language.

I never saw any post saying that. But I'm sure screen shotting the accusation will be enough to demonstrate what a nest of vipers this place is.

Could a mod perhaps clear up whether any such post was deleted?

Great post from TabithasMumCaroline

@MNHQ was a comment saying “kys” deleted? None of us saw it (or have ever seen anything remotely close in my case), all I am sure would condemn any that language without reservation. It is quite alarming.

Well done for your post @Babyjakesmum. It's scary the level of anti-trans vitriol that is shared on these boards.

One of the most frightening parts is how much of it is based upon misinformation or arguments that take one example of a person's unpardonable behaviour as being somehow indicative of a whole group of people.

I really worry that many people are coming on to these boards with little frame of reference or knowledge about trans people and this is their introduction.