Trans chat

[Babyjakesmum]

I haven't been on Mumsnet in a while, but have dropped back in to see what was going on when I heard about the sponsors dropping Mumsnet because of anti-trans hate. I expected it to be a storm in a tea cup.

But sadly, I have to say that I find the level of bitter hatred on here to be utterly breathtaking. I have trans people in my family. I have friends who have trans people, and the way they are being discussed here is simply appalling.

Being trans isn't something anyone takes lightly, or lives lightly either. It's is not mental illness, it is not an excuse to abuse children, it is not a passing fad. It is bloody hard on those who find themselves in that situation, and this sort of hate-fest of ignorance and accusation only makes their lives even harder.

I used to come on here to talk about my babies and life as a Mum, and it was supportive and safe space for me to talk openly about my feelings and experiences. It no longer feels safe for anyone. I don't think I will be coming back to be a regular again. I cannot comprehend what has become of the people on here for this level of narrow mindedness to be flourishing.

Make no mistake, I am an old school, campaigning, hard-bitten feminist, and have been since before half the people on here were born. I understand the feminist anti-trans arguments but I find all of it to be empty of any basis in reality. Trans people aren't lurking in changing rooms, trans people aren't after your kids or trying to undermine your own femininity. They are having a very hard time in life.

I know you can cite a handful of examples, but then there are always a handful of example of anything. One Karen White does not mean you write off all trans-people as criminals.

I would say to you to get to know an actual transperson and see what the reality is, except that I wouldn't want any vulnerable person subjected to this.... you also probably do already know a transperson somewhere in your life, but most don't wear a badge to tell you that because it's actually none of your business what clothes or pronouns someone chooses to use.

Make no mistake, I am an old school, campaigning, hard-bitten feminist, and have been since before half the people on here were born

You never did respond to my post in which I asked what it was that you felt made you 'hard-bitten'? I'm certainly not hard bitten, as I've not lost my capacity for compassion and empathy - and do not consider myself battle weary, either.

You also assumed that you were so much older and more experienced than most people; though I suspect that you really are not. Many people here have been long at the forefront of radical and liberation politics, and many of us are grandmothers. To make such claims in an opening post, is knowingly provocative and dismissive in the extreme.

If you spent more time in genuine engagement you would find like-mindedness with many posters, I'm sure - even though we cannot all get on or 'click' with everyone, and some people's styles may rub up against our own. This is an open forum, and a coming together of many people united, mainly, in our belief that trans gender ideology is a degenerate force, and one that is, in its implications, of concern to all of us.

Now wondering if I can use the following water-related sayings or if they will be interpreted as 'swimming with fishes'.

'It's just a drop in the ocean'
'It's sink or swim'
'Taking the plunge'
'Jumping ship'

Can'y we move on.... and discuss the issues the OP brought up......this regurgitation of grievances is just pointless and will do nothing except get the thread deleted.

If OP does return I'm also curious as to why feminists would in her opinion feel that our femininity was threatened by trans people. Which is a question with multiple layers, really, and I'd be interested to see if she understands why.

I'd be interested to see if she understands why.

Or if it's just parroting without understanding what things mean?

Perhaps OP has read the Trans Widows threads here and realised a truth?

If OP does return I'm also curious as to why feminists would in her opinion feel that our femininity was threatened by trans people. Which is a question with multiple layers, really, and I'd be interested to see if she understands why

I suspect she means that our real life womanhood is not threatened by the identity of a trans woman, or something like that. Except that misses the point quite spectacularly......because we are all quite secure in our womanhood - for the reason we are women ( those of us that are). We know what it means to be in a female body, and to live life in ours society as biological females, and as women and girls.

The point that is missed is that you cannot magically think yourself into being a woman; a female - you either are or you are not. What we make of ourselves and the way deal with our situations is as variable as there are people/individuals. But we all share a common thread - and that is our femaleness/our sexed bodies. This is not superficial: just a matter of superficial characteristics, behaviours, dress or 'gendered' behaviours........but a common position in a sexist society.

And males, no matter how they identify remain male in oh so many ways - some more obvious, some more subtle.

Biology matters.

Why say femininity, then, which has a very specific meaning? Rather than us speculating I would like OP to explain what she meant and why she chose that particular word.

I reckon she left her lappie open and her super woke kids have hiwoked her account, pesky kids!

It's quite difficult to engage, when the OP box off and never returns.

I'd still like my question answered, though. As a hard-bitten feminist, how does she interpret gender.

Because it's quite key...

OP, worth a read. Charlie, a female, detransitioned in 2018. Here she tells her story and talks of the hundreds of young people seeking her help after regretting having surgery and because it hasn't solved anything.

As a feminist OP why do you think there has been a 4,000% increase in girls being referred to gender ID clinics?

news.sky.com/story/hundreds-of-young-trans-people-seeking-help-to-return-to-original-sex-11827740

I suspect she means that our real life womanhood is not threatened by the identity of a trans woman, or something like that

Well quite.

My womanhood is not threatened.

My rights are threatened.

Is sarcasm really a problem now? On a British based forum? Our sarcasm is pretty much the only thing we Brits all have in common!

Just so you know, we were advised some months ago by MNHQ that sarcasm creates a hostile environment. Though MN is a discussion forum MNHQ has made it quite clear that on this one subject on the Feminist board what they want from women is civil debate . You might think it odd that a website that calls itself Mumsnet would want women to debate the pros and cons of women's right to free speech, privacy, and dignity, but that is what they have decided.
I say this in an effort to help women understand that the MN rules for Feminists on FWR really are different from anywhere else on the site and it would be a good idea to read them carefully if you wish to avoid being deleted for being insufficiently civil to those who are generally insulting and personally attacking you.

Serious question. How do you undermine someone's femininity? I don't understand that part OP.

Poor innocent thread, forced to take a long walk off a short pier.

Or perhaps to go and play with the traffic?

Just "go away"?

They sneak up behind you and snatch the pretty pink bow out of your hair? I think the majority here are as confused as I am about how one would undermine someone's femininity and why a bunch of feminists would care if they did.

pbs.twimg.com/media/EHBPMecWoAEciH8.jpg

Where do you live that you're completely oblivious to the thousands of news stories that contradict your "it's not...."s??? Can i come and live there too?! Must be peaceful.

Trans people are just people. Some are lovely, some are ok, some are downright dodgy/dangerous. They're not some holy category of infallible being. Get real OP.

Why say femininity, then, which has a very specific meaning? Rather than us speculating I would like OP to explain what she meant and why she chose that particular word

I think that is because there is much widespread blending & merging and hence confusion between sex and gender; between female & feminine. I have to agree, though, for a woman who calls herself a " hard-bitten" feminist not to recognise this does seem off kilter.

I'd expect any feminist to be very clear on the distinction, thus the question. Maybe she meant she's a hard bitten feminine? So, like, you get manicures but still bite your nails?

I'd still like my question answered, though. As a hard-bitten feminist, how does she interpret gender

My guess is that this poster has not really thought through 'first principles'; instead focusing on touchy-feely individual cases of persons known and familiar. Because transgenderism is so individualistic and self centred, and based on emotion and sentiment it does not lend itself very well to wider discourse about theory and principle.

I'd expect any feminist to be very clear on the distinction, thus the question. Maybe she meant she's a hard bitten feminine? So, like, you get manicures but still bite your nails?

Well, yes, but given that this is a public and open forum I think it is probably best to confront provocation ( if one can be bothered) with rational argument rather than personal comment. Keep to the high ground wherever possible.

You are free to do things your way and I am also free to approach them as I please.

Serious question. How do you undermine someone's femininity? I don't understand that part OP

Maybe by doing 'femininity' better? Having longer, more luxurious hair; being better manicured and pedicured; by dressing with more obvious care and fastidiousness; by averting & lowering one's eyes & gaze more readily; by being more 'accommodating' of idiosyncratic foibles......by being 'sexier' and so on......obviously.