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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Feminism: chat

See all MNHQ comments on this thread

Original poster

Trans chat

485 replies

Babyjakesmum · 16/10/2019 19:10

I haven't been on Mumsnet in a while, but have dropped back in to see what was going on when I heard about the sponsors dropping Mumsnet because of anti-trans hate. I expected it to be a storm in a tea cup.

But sadly, I have to say that I find the level of bitter hatred on here to be utterly breathtaking. I have trans people in my family. I have friends who have trans people, and the way they are being discussed here is simply appalling.

Being trans isn't something anyone takes lightly, or lives lightly either. It's is not mental illness, it is not an excuse to abuse children, it is not a passing fad. It is bloody hard on those who find themselves in that situation, and this sort of hate-fest of ignorance and accusation only makes their lives even harder.

I used to come on here to talk about my babies and life as a Mum, and it was supportive and safe space for me to talk openly about my feelings and experiences. It no longer feels safe for anyone. I don't think I will be coming back to be a regular again. I cannot comprehend what has become of the people on here for this level of narrow mindedness to be flourishing.

Make no mistake, I am an old school, campaigning, hard-bitten feminist, and have been since before half the people on here were born. I understand the feminist anti-trans arguments but I find all of it to be empty of any basis in reality. Trans people aren't lurking in changing rooms, trans people aren't after your kids or trying to undermine your own femininity. They are having a very hard time in life.

I know you can cite a handful of examples, but then there are always a handful of example of anything. One Karen White does not mean you write off all trans-people as criminals.

I would say to you to get to know an actual transperson and see what the reality is, except that I wouldn't want any vulnerable person subjected to this.... you also probably do already know a transperson somewhere in your life, but most don't wear a badge to tell you that because it's actually none of your business what clothes or pronouns someone chooses to use.

OP posts:
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Apollo440 · 17/10/2019 15:07

I really would like an answer to the very serious accusation that the OP was told to kill themselves. Either the poster who made the accusation should be banned or if it was a false accusation then the OP should be banned. This cannot be brushed over.

2BthatUnnoticed · 17/10/2019 15:28

Apollo someone said “take a long walk off a short pier”... she later clarified she had assumed OP could swim but if not, to wear a life jacket.

This was interpreted as an instruction to commit suicide Shock

HorseWithNoFucksToGive · 17/10/2019 15:34

That's a big fuck off "NO" from me too.

(tl;dr - did anyone even bother to ask for their definition of "woman"? Pointless, non?)

Apollo440 · 17/10/2019 15:35

Yep. I made that comment. Clearly their interpretation was purely for screen shotting and creating a false equivalence to common TRA behaviour ('die in a grease fire'). If that is the case there is really no level these activists won't go to to discredit GC opponents. Because of course they have no defensible arguments and rely entirely on preventing a debate in the first place.

Dangerfloof · 17/10/2019 15:40

Good question and strong replies very encouraging. Its brill that we can all talk with passion on both sides
Umm is this more sarcasm? Asking for a friend

2BthatUnnoticed · 17/10/2019 15:41

Oh sorry didn’t realise, MN only see if you @MNHQ tag I think, but these days they don’t seem to come on threads

ErrolTheDragon · 17/10/2019 15:49

As someone who grew up by the seaside, it's possible to take a long walk on a short pier by making U-turns.
But also that no one advised to take a long walk off a short pier ever took it remotely as any sort of threat, merely a mild and unsweary 'bugger off'.

MNHQ
LilyMumsnet · 17/10/2019 15:54

Hi folks,

We deleted a post as a personal attack and we'd have deleted it from any thread, regardless of topic.

Can we move on now? It's derailing the conversation and if we have to make more deletions, we may have to consider taking this thread down.

Thanks. Flowers

BarbaraStrozzi · 17/10/2019 15:57

This reply has been deleted

Message deleted by MNHQ. Here's a link to our Talk Guidelines.

ErrolTheDragon · 17/10/2019 16:03

Can we take it, then, Lily, that in fact no-one actually told OP to kill herself, her claim that they did was ridiculous hyperbole?

Or possibly a retaliatory personal attack on the poster who ill-advisedly used a common idiom? Of the two, I know which I'd be more upset by.

GenderfreeJoe · 17/10/2019 16:11

Nice. Concerns about the very real risks to women and medicalisation of children (who are very unlikely to be gillick competent) is framed as bitter hatred now is it. I suggest you have a lot more learning and understanding to do. Until then. Jog on.

Justhadathought · 17/10/2019 16:13

It was probably an ill advised use of this idiom, as someone unfamiliar with it could easily translate as ill intentioned.Telling someone to take a long walk along a short pier is likely to be taken as a personal affront. However, The OP did come in quite heavy handedly in the first instance - making accusations and generalisations, which were bound to provoke a response.

This thread seems to have run its course, and is likely to be deleted soon.

Datun · 17/10/2019 16:14

I for one, would like to see this thread stay. Despite all the deletions. Most of the deleted posts are from regulars and people can make up their own minds. It's quite clear how one-sided this debate is, and this thread amplifies it. Let's try and keep it.

HorseWithNoFucksToGive · 17/10/2019 16:17

We deleted a post as a personal attack..

"A" post?

More sarcasm?

Justhadathought · 17/10/2019 16:21

Being trans isn't something anyone takes lightly, or lives lightly either. It's is not mental illness, it is not an excuse to abuse children, it is not a passing fad

The thing is being trans, or being non-binary ( the latest addition to the long list of gender identities) is a bit of a fad; and something which quite a number do seem to take quite lightly. That is because it forms part of a popular trend which seeks to frame certain personality characteristics as being somehow unusual or out of the box.

And for some people 'being trans' is a mental illness; or at least an inability to deal with personal dissonance and feelings about the self in a more integrated way. Also for quite a large number of men, transvestitism and fetish is now being re-framed as 'trans'.

Then we have the young lesbians and gay youth who feel that they have to come out as trans in order to explain who they are and how they feel, and because being a lesbian is contrary to being cool or socially accepted these days.

VickyEadieofThigh · 17/10/2019 16:23

I post regularly on Twitter and in order to avoid permanent banning (Twitter tends to judge GC posters much more harshly than anyone else), I have to scrutinise everything I post several times before I press submit.

It's because people are scrutinising what we post in order to get us banned, you see.

NonHypotheticalLurkingParent · 17/10/2019 16:25

You're damned if you keep this thread up - removing take a long walk off a short pier as a personal attack. Really?

You're damned if you take it down - it's already been posted on twitter by Britain's biggest lover of Flora, with a comment about it being removed.

Sword of Damocles his hanging over your head @MNHQ Disclaimer - I'm not holding or threatening to hold a literal sword over your head

It' not derailing - it's highlighting the hyperbole used to attack the FWR board with.

From the OP Being trans isn't something anyone takes lightly, or lives lightly either. It's is not mental illness, it is not an excuse to abuse children, it is not a passing fad. It is bloody hard on those who find themselves in that situation, and this sort of hate-fest of ignorance and accusation only makes their lives even harder.

I found this to be a personal attack. It came just after I'd been posting about my daughter's experience of being transgender on a thread that was subsequently deleted. For my daughter it was a 'phase' more than a fad and was exacerbated by mental illness. It was a fucking awful 4 years. We had self-harm, suicide attempts, bulimia, plus a lot more.

People need to take their fingers out of their ears (this is an idiom, their fingers are not really in their ears) and actually listen to stories (a factual one not a fiction) like my daughter's. I know the responses it;
she she wasn't gender dysphoric, just gender non-conforming.
you're such a bigot, he's so frightened by you he's unable to be his true authentic self.
as soon as she's out of your evil clutches she'll re-transition.
blah, blah, blah.

BernardBlacksWineIceLolly · 17/10/2019 16:28

Yes, I experienced the OP’s posts as a personal attack

An inarticulate, rambling, incoherent attack, but still an attack

BlooperReel · 17/10/2019 16:32

Can't even tell someone to fuck off now Hmm

Not usually such sensitive souls around here.

ErrolTheDragon · 17/10/2019 16:42

You know those notices they have at airport security about not making jokes about guns or bombs? It's a bit like that. (Except in that case, there is a possibility of real harm, of course.)

ThighThighOfthigh · 17/10/2019 17:20

Errol the problem with those notices is they make it irresistible.

HandsOffMyRights · 17/10/2019 17:22

Threads get derailed every single day. By those who wish to silence us and use the cowardly Twitter tricks of reporting, threats, doxxing, diversion. Come on MN you're better than this aren't you?

The thread about the plans to make school toilets mixed sex the other day had one obvious derailer.

Many of us referred to the derailing as the poster desperately tried to divert the conversation.

We're being set up MN. Predictible tactics.

BeMoreMagdalen · 17/10/2019 17:25

Tbf, you could always get deleted for telling someone to fuck off. That's a standard personal attack. That's the very reason for ODFOD.

Apollo440 · 17/10/2019 17:26

@MNHQ
And so no one told anyone to kill themselves?
That's a pretty bald accusation to let stand without sanction isn't it?

OneTerrificMouse · 17/10/2019 17:39

As it happens, my personal views on trans rights are very mixed, I don't wholly ascribe to either side of it,

Just wondering OP, if you have mixed views, what happened when you went on a Trans forum and asked them to stop threatening to kill women?