India Willoughby v Woke Bloke

[twelvecolourfulbirds]

From Good Morning Britain. Possibly on this morning (it's just appeared on my Youtube recommendations).

Who decides what is and isn’t an acceptable gender?

Exactly. Kids on Facebook?

The LGBT community is now actively working agaisnt itself

Yes, and it's an active deliberate thing. As soon as you start looking into Queer Theory, and hear the talk of "sexual preferences" and see "genital preferences" being derided as transphobic, you see the homophobia steeped in Queer Theory and trans ideology.

And then you get onto the child stuff....actively seeking to make children question their gender, take puberty blockers to keep them child-like, separate them from their families, and find their "rainbow families" online - it's even more sinister.

Exactly. Kids on Facebook?

I think it’s probably a group of beardy wokey blokeys.

I wondered if the women weren't more inclined to be quiet during the interview because women seem to have more to lose when they speak out about trans issues.

butterface

Isn't this what Flora was wearing when masquerading as something it wasn't?

Has anyone already pointed out the vegan (ish) alternative to Benjamin Icantbeleiveitsnotbutterworth? Try Flora Ben, it's no longer transfat we hear.

I think India's position is that she doesn't see herself as a "transwoman", she sees herself as a woman, because she's transitioned "properly".

Prior to all this, most people would have just accepted India as a woman. But now India is lumped in with all the other transwomen, including the ones whose entire "transition" involves a sequin t-shirt.

Sad thing is, lots of people like me who now refuse to compromise on considering any male a woman would have previously been quite happy with a fully transitioned transwomen like India living "as" a woman in most ways. India is right that she's lost out because of the trans movement.

I think India understands. They get it now.

I've never known astrologers threaten people with violence for not sharing their unsubstantiated beliefs

Very true. I just think the navel gazing bit, and the fondness for intricate explanations linked to an elaborate labeling system that only makes sense to the initiated seems similar.

I enjoyed that, and liked IW in it, but it’s obvious she really just cares about IW. For example she says “you lot have lost me a lot of work”.

I think IW sees herself as different as well as she has had (please correct if I’m mistaken) bottom surgery and is now fully transitioned. She has separated herself from the trans groups.

IW is angry because everyone is getting on the trans train and calling themselves trans when they haven’t had surgery. Great that they see the madness of this, but we’re they like this before the surgery? Or did they spout out the transwomen are women nonsense.

53MockersthefeMANist wrote......

"Do the Wokey Blokey and you turn around, that’s what it’s all about...”
Knees bend, legs spread, raa-raa-raa!"

I've had a bit of a shit stressed out morning.
Hahaha You just brightened my day
Many thanks. ☺️👍

I have a new favourite word: ‘Wokémon’

I think one of the side effects of the TRA stuff is that before this nonsense, most women would probably be absolutely fine with a trans woman like India W using the women’s loos etc. Numbers were few and someone with GD would have surgery in most cases. For me certainly it was a total non issue.

Now, more and more are taking a hard line that no biological males should be in women’s spaces.

Totally agree NellieEllie. There was an unspoken alliance between transwomen and women, because we’re kind and accommodating on the whole.

Women should be transwomen’s greatest ally, men certainly won’t be!

However they’ve taken our kindness and thrown it in our faces and stomped all over our boundaries in a uniquely male fashion.

Now our kindness and tolerance has been pushed to breaking point and we’re not accepting it anymore. People like India are the ones who will lose out. Their previous acceptance and admission has been revoked.

Agree also with NellieEllie and Sexnotgender. I've gone from a position of what I think would be pretty normal accommodation of transexuals to now being angry as hell. For people who think we still live in the days where transgender means what transexual once did I probably seem intolerant and unkind. Betrayal, fear, anger can do that to a person.

People like India played a huge role in creating this problem so I don’t have a great deal of sympathy for India now this movement has become so grotesque.

The minute it was agreed that an adult human male could “become” a woman via surgery, hormones, clothes etc, the groundwork was laid for saying that an adult human male could actually be a woman in some innate sense, regardless of surgery, hormones, clothes - or beard.

The bullshit started with the original “transsexuals”: the legislative changes, the lobbying, the regulatory capture - it all started with them, as has been very well evidenced on this board.

True gender dysphoria must be deeply painful - but so are hundreds of other psychological conditions. Better mental health treatment across the board is what is needed to address all of them. And the foundation of good mental health treatment is truth and honesty; awareness of reality - not denial. Taking denial of reality, escalating it and elevating it to the status of a desirable treatment was never going to end well. And it hasn’t.

India is no friend to women. Although yes it was hilarious watching India’s frustration at the odious young man who thinks he knows everything, and thinks the world should be grateful for his asinine bigotry - but India has demonstrated many times India’s contempt for women and disinclination to listen to us when it doesn’t suit India.

I just hope this awful movement begins to eat itself more and more. Bring on the conflict between the Willoughbys and the Harrops and Butterworths and MacKinnons. Let everyone gradually realise that the only line you can draw is the one that says NO right at the very beginning. The one that rightly excludes all those who were never meant to be included, by any measure of reason or justice, in the first place.

Willoughby is just another adult human male who has fetishised and appropriated womanhood. It is all projection, all of it. Males claiming womanhood is an act of colonialism and oppression enabled by their male privilege; Willoughby has absolutely zero experience of or insight into what it means to actually live as a woman.

So it really hacked me off when Morgan kept calling India a woman. Morgan is a journalist, his trade is words. So what does the word “woman” actually mean, Piers?

What is it that I and all other XX humans have in common with Willoughby but not with bog standard XY males?

Why can no one ever answer this question?

You can imagine, you can empathise, but it's like when your mum or child dies and someone (with no experience of either) says 'I know how you must feel' you know that no - they imagine how you feel - they understand you are in pain and turmoil, but they can't know.

Well I for one never signed up to any 'alliance' or honour system with any male people about women's spaces.

Nor did my 9 year old daughter. Nor did my 87 year old mother. Nor did my sister who has endured horrific DA.

The whole 'true trans' argument for me falls down even before we get out of the brightly lit loos at the Old Vic and into a refuge or a prison or the changing rooms of a run down baths in a run down area.

I get that people want to be nice. But this is a false distinction that is being created. It still moves the goalposts - just slightly less far.

I want those goalposts to stay where they are and I don't see any compelling argument that we should settle for less.

I fully agree that yes, as soon as the legal fiction arose that there was a way in which people born male could 'become' women, the threat to women was there. It's just that people like Debbie H and India could get away with quite a bit on the grounds of total transition and very small numbers, and it wasn't really scrutinised.

Now it's been thoroughly scrutinised, it's bleeding obvious that there is a whole lot wrong with every part of it for women, and I think IW knows that genie won't be going back in the bottle. I do see the issue, they've lost the ground they liked having, but it was never in women's best interests or a good decision in the first place. Certainly when you listen to DH talk, under the reasonability is still a belief that women are subordinate, inferior, and it is for people born male to tell them what they may or may not have, what they may or may not mind about, and an expectation that a male born person's wishes must always take priority over females' opinions, feelings, wishes and even needs.

Fuck that for a game of soldiers. Women are not props in male born people's lives.

What has to happen - the only way to equitably meet all needs - is third spaces, with everyone having a choice between their birth sex provision or unisex/mixed sex provision. People will have to accept that there are limits to how far any transition and any degree of transition can go, in order to avoid damaging women and girls' rights and needs. And decent people care about others as well as themselves.

I can’t say it’s a ‘transition‘ if you can just ‘switch’ in a minute - take off clothes and wipe off makeup. That’s a costume surely?

A transition is like a butterfly emerging from its cocoon after being a caterpillar.

True gender dysphoria must be deeply painful - but so are hundreds of other psychological conditions. Better mental health treatment across the board is what is needed to address all of them. And the foundation of good mental health treatment is truth and honesty; awareness of reality - not denial. Taking denial of reality, escalating it and elevating it to the status of a desirable treatment was never going to end well. And it hasn’t

So true. I assume there was a time when to be trans was considered a mental health/psychological problem and entirely treated as so? What tipped it over to being a new sex or gender based identity or form of self-expression (or whatever it is that it is actually defined as today?)?

My experience has been that in the past, the few transwomen around that I knew were largely treated as women, although they also avoided certain kinds of situations like change rooms. But it was pretty rare in any case, so it's not like it came up as an issue regularly, and the people involved seemed to understand very well how medicalised it all was.

@Michelleoftheresistance
"And decent people care about others as well as themselves"

This 100% - the decent respectful TW have been silenced by the entitled selfish misogynistic oafs who couldn't behave less like women if they tried (and I am talking here about the alleged TW who seem to be using this issue as nothing more than an excuse to trample on women and our rights).
The sheer audacity to pretend to be lesbians (and try to shame actual lesbians for saying no) or compete against women at sports is something to behold.