MNHQ make a statement on Twitter re FWR

[GirlDownUnder]

mobile.twitter.com/MumsnetTowers/status/1182615292813467648

Mumsnet will always stand in solidarity with minority communities. We don’t tolerate transphobic comments and will delete any when they are flagged to us. But we do also believe strongly in free speech. 1/3

The discussion of gender self-id and what that might mean for very hard-won women’s rights, as well as the rapidly growing number of children exploring gender identity issues, is contentious. 2/3

We know some people would like us to simply censor this entire debate but a similar number think we censor too much. We’re committed to allowing respectful discussion of an issue that is of particular interest to parents. 3/3

The usual suspects pile on, but I think the ratios look very good.

MNHQ

How the fuck can anyone be born with a gender presentation?

People never stick around to answer questions like these do they?

(Pro tip: it’s because they can’t due to their beliefs being absolute bobbins)

Presentation literally means all the stuff other than the body, hair and clothes and makeup and so on. So, how would it be possible for a baby to be born with one? Please enlighten me because I'm getting mental images of newborns emerging from the womb with a bow on their head or a tiny Man U jersey and it's disconcerting.

*I’ve just got dressed this morning including trainers, trousers and made zero effort with my hair. No makeup either.

Apparently I am now officially less of a ‘Cis woman’ and am now presenting as a ‘trans man’. What a lovely progressive world we live in.*

It's become apparent to me in the last couple of years that, under the TRA definition I too am now a trans man. Who knew! I have often wished I was a lesbian but sadly I am a heterosexual woman with 4 biological kids that I conceived and gave birth to. However, it seems that the fact that I work in the trad male dominated tech in industry, hate my breasts, never wear heels, skirt or dresses (mainly because I hate my fat calves) and dont like gender stereotypes mean that I am, in fact, a man!!

Oh and hubby's cousin who says that stuff about not being heterosexual because he's "normal"? He's a crackhead and loves that crazy drug Spice too.

Ha - yes, I love the thinly veiled implication that any woman who objects to be being "cis" is as raving her DH's cousin who's a crackhead, people! "You all sound like crackheads!!!"

BoneAppleTeaa

I started a thread called “break it down for me” which really helped me to understand what was going on, it might still be good for people new to the issue.

The “break it down for me” remains one of the most important and frequently bumped threads on this forum, you’ll be pleased to hear it continues to help many people understand.

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3145470-Break-it-down-for-me

What utter nonsense talking of a baby in terms of gender.

Someone doesn't know their social constructs as opposed to actual biology.

Genders aren't real things they're just a way of interpreting how a sex is supposed to be/act/clothe themselves/style their hair, and its harmful.

The sooner we drop harmful sterotypes the better.

That anyone can think a naked baby 'presents a gender' is worrying, in its fantasy.

I worry for any baby of that pp.

I am a woman, not accepting that others know better than me about what I want, but its certainly not to be called cis and judged somehow for my behaviour. Screw that.

Who are these people that decide they know better than others and have some sort of self-appointed right to judge others clothes and style and put them in a box.

Keep your judgements to yourself.

Stay away from harmful stereotypes.

If you want to be a stereotype (and from what I've seen its a pretty bizarre distortion of how women 'present' themselves) then you do you, but stop convincing yourselves you can dictate to others who they are.

Babies sex is predetermined and stays with them for life, however difficult that is for some to handle. Puberty is a difficult time and for some unbearable, but its not a fantasy, its real.

Sex is decided at conception. Just another one of those 'facts of life' and my heart goes out to those struggling so terribly with this.

I have no time for those who get all self-righteous and go round labelling others.

Keep your judgements to yourself.

The posts on here may not be openly blatantly transphobic, but they are subtly scaremongering. They stir up fear and hatred.

Think of it this way - if I said 'I hate immigrants', I'd be called out on it.

But if I say 'I have no problem with immigrants but they should integrate more and should not automatically be entitled to benefits', I probably wouldn't be called out on it.

The sentiment is the same - the delivery is the only difference.

I feel it's the exact same here about the trans issue(s). People are careful how they phrase things, but the sentiment is clear to see.

You'd need to be blind and deaf not to see the fear and hatred that there is towards trans women here. Even just this thread is 12 pages of a pile on of 'support' for the freedom to express fear about trans rights. Why is that ok?

I also personally feel it's dangerous (and I don't use that term lightly) to have a site which actively and proudly and staunchly protects what it sees as free speech. I.e. daily discussions denigrating trans women. Whether it's them competing in sports or using female bathrooms, the daily bile gets spat out. I avoid the threads like the plague as to me it's actually upsetting reading. It reminds me of a time in history where blacks were to be feared.

Have any of you seen this?

It doesn't take long for pack mentality to take over. Normally presumably rational human beings can be influenced inordinately by a large and vocal majority.

Think about what you're permitting @MNHQ.

if I said 'I hate immigrants', I'd be called out on it.
But if I say 'I have no problem with immigrants but they should integrate more and should not automatically be entitled to benefits', I probably wouldn't be called out on it. The sentiment is the same - the delivery is the only difference

They are not the same.

Even just this thread is 12 pages of a pile on of 'support' for the freedom to express fear about trans rights. Why is that ok?

Because "trans rights" (Your words) are conflicting with the safeguarding of children and the rights of women to have sex segregated spaces in law.

"Free speech is dangerous" certainly is an interesting position to take.

daily discussions denigrating trans women. Whether it's them competing in sports or using female bathrooms

Mmm, heaven (or Flora) forbid women openly discuss whether or not they’re happy to share private spaces with males eh?

You don't want women to discuss the impact on them from a movement with is impacting their rights?

Who of you here have actually directly had YOUR rights impacted negatively by this 'movement'?

All of us.

What, like the time I was expected to share a single sex toilet with a male at work, infringing my right to single sex provision?

Ok, lets bring it back to immigrants again.

If @MNHQ were to allow and actively endorse 'free speech' discussing peoples' concerns about immigration, where would that lead? It would lead to a lot of people reading fear filled scaremongering and it doesn't take long for people to follow the pack. In time, there would be pages and pages and thread after thread about the dangers of immigrants. Do you agree with that or not? Just answer that one question. Do you agree that that is what would happen or not?

Who of you here have actually directly had YOUR rights impacted negatively by this 'movement'?

1})Every women who was in the same jail as Karen White.
2) every one who has been a part of Faircop
3) everyone abused for going feminist meetings
4) Everyone Swatted

EVERYONE'S RIGHTS MATTER

What, like the time I was expected to share a single sex toilet with a male at work, infringing my right to single sex provision?

And how did that affect you?

I asked who of YOU. You. You people here. You personally. You.

Ok, lets bring it back to immigrants again.

We are not talking about immigrants, if you have to make an argument using a completely different minority, with different needs then you have no argument.

Ok, lets bring it back to immigrants again

Ok let’s not since the situations aren’t really analogous

How about you say what you actually mean?

I’m guessing it’s something like ‘women, ignore your boundaries. Being kind is more important than feeling safe’

I asked who of YOU. You. You people here. You personally. You.

Okay Me!

Very few of you have ever been affected by this 'movement'. Yet, you'd swear there was an army of trans women infiltrating every place a woman entered. It's hyperbole and it's dangerous. And fair fuck's to Flora for saying 'not in our name'.

And how did that affect you?

It made me extremely unhappy about using the toilets at work and feel that my privacy and dignity were not considered to be important

A view you seem to share

Nope, sorry, you're not going to be allowed to reframe the discussion to suit you.

Also, putting "free speech" in scare quotes makes you look very silly.