“He makes the hair on the back of my neck stand up” - warning signs you have observed

[AnyOldPrion]

Thanks to the Relationships board, I now have a better understanding of the red flags that can occur early in a relationship that indicate risk.

But it crossed my mind earlier that sometimes there are men (and possibly women) who set off instincts that make us feel unsafe.

Please don’t mention any names, or specific people, but what signs have you noticed that might consciously or subconsciously have triggered that response?

I’m personally not good at this, but I will try to start with a couple of things. These are things that happen when I’m in the same space as someone, but sometimes I have that reaction to photographs or recordings and I’m not sure why. I’d love to be able to understand what it is I’m picking up on.

Standing a little too close and/or moving towards me when I have moved away.

Being watched/stared at/eyes wandering.

Not backing off when asked.

Thanks in advance to anyone more observant.

Sorry!

....with men there’s an extra dimension of primal fear that I don’t experience with women.

My family used to force me to kiss everyone, on the lips. I absolutely hated it then and The thought of it it makes my skin crawl even now.

My mum in particular used to have a thing about noticing I was uncomfortable with close body contact. Her solution to this was to threaten and guilt trip me if I refused. Even now she throws it back in my face like it’s some sort of personal insult to her. I just didn’t like hugging. No particular reason it just made me uncomfortable. Even now I don’t approach DS for hugs. I give a quick hug before bed that he always hangs around for and I let him approach me for any others. I’d never make him touch anyone he didn’t want to, not even me. I was angry with my mum a few years ago when he went to stay, the one and only time, with them. He was reluctant to hug her and she forced him, then gave me a barrage of abuse over text about not teaching my son physical affection.

I have never felt physically threatened by another adult woman. As a kid, nuns were fairly physical and unpredictable but if a woman went for me, physically, I think I could fend her off. Probably get roughed up it it would seem a fairer fight.
Not the same with a man
I know I could be easily overpowered by the average man if he was determined to do so. And as a woman that knowledge is upper most in our minds

For those that don’t have the time to read the Gavin De Becker book - this Oprah podcast recaps an interview she did with him and another and where it saved lives:

podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/oprahs-supersoul-conversations/id1264843400?i=1000445769068

As a kid, nuns were fairly physical and unpredictable

You must have encountered a weird order. The very last thing I'd say about the nuns who taught me is that they were physical and unpredictable.

The husband of a lovely elderly woman I knew (friends of my PiL) seemed very nice, but I freaked out when I was there one day and he took one of my little girls out into the garden and sat on a bench and put her on his knee. I shot out after them and was jiggling around like I was on hot coals. Never felt comfortable around him after that, and a few years later when I was kissing them goodbye he stuck his tongue in my mouth! His poor sweet wife was standing right beside us smiling innocently. Shits like him trade on the fact that you don't want to hurt his wife by creating a scene.

Shits like him trade on the fact that you don't want to hurt his wife by creating a scene.

That's what the guy who touched my bum on the train relied on.

my brother's wife would always tell their little girls to kiss everyone goodbye.

I wish people wouldn't do this - there aren't many people I want to be kissed by. It's not fair on either side to insist on kissing, either as recipient or kisser. (Plus it's teaching people to ignore boundaries.)

I am interested in the forced teaming - I think it's natural to seek out similarities and things in common when you meet people. If I meet someone who is interested in walking and Formula 1, I am going to focus on the walking, as it's something we have in common. I realise there's a difference between finding common ground to build some sort of relationship and forced teaming, but I think it can be difficult to spot. I could do it with my mother, "oh well, we think X, don't we!" I would reply, "no, we don't think X, I think Y." Or I might have just rolled my eyes sometimes. But if it's someone you don't know as well, it might not always be as easy to spot, or you might not feel as confident about speaking up. And I think with a lot of these things - people could just be socially awkward but otherwise harmless, and they probably don't really present differently from those who are deliberately pushing boundaries, and it's difficult to know when to give people the benefit of the doubt and when to keep well away, particularly when we generally are socialised to be polite.

The people who describe being forced to hug or kiss by their parents:

Children have a right to boundaries and parents enforcing physical contact, even to kiss granny goodbye, tells children that their boundaries are wrong.

Barracker omg

Eye contact: I know it’s supposed supposed to be a sign of honesty etc but the VERY few kids that freaked me out when teaching were the ones who didn’t follow the animalistic patterns that we all have-keep eye contact but offer mutual deference by breaking that contact in turn. I think we lose our animal patterns and instincts at our peril

I notice a lot of low level creepy behaviour on public transport. The guy who jiggles his leg repeatedly with his hands in his pocket and then stops when another man sits down. The manspreading or the sitting next to you in a train full of empty seats. I can see the boundary pushing and testing of women's niceness and politeness. I was attacked when I was young so have a heightened radar for this shit, I never switch off. It's exhausting to be like this all the time but to quote the Gavin de Becker book it's a gift.

When I meet someone I instinctively believe to be bad I feel a sinking cold sensation in my body like dread. I almost feel myself cringing from them physically. Luckily it's rare enough.

Also meant to add about the "teaming" - there's a well known transperson that does that, sending DMs to feminists on Twitter etc to let us know how supportive they are, and one of us. Gave me the instant heebie jeebies and I'm not wrong.

Having read through the entire thread, I'm actually left with more questions than answers:

Many of the things mentioned ring perfectly true - but only for SOME people SOME of the time rather than everybody, always.

For example, I've had a total of four bosses in my career history spanning around two decades (counting my school and uni days) who could have been categorised as "inappropriate" in some form or another. Using this just because they're comparable - I've felt the very same about myriad encounters over the course of my life:

Boss #1 I worked for in my teens. Single, looking and used to constantly talk about sex to me. He was in his 30s. I thought he was a massive creep and inappropriately interested in both myself and (eeeek!) my slightly younger sister. But I never felt threatened by him in the slightest.

Boss #2 was flamboyantly gay. He also used to pinch my bum and once had the glorious idea of emptying an ice bucket into my cleavage at a company do. I was in my early to mid twenties, he was around 30. I thought he was a bully and an arse but not a creep then. With the benefit of hindsight, I think he was a misogynistic bully and an arse with a massive Napoleon complex but still not a creep.

Boss #3 was a self-infatuated utter creep with a wife and two kids, who clearly signalled not only to myself but also to any other woman around that he wouldn't mind a bit on the side. Used to run his fingers up my spine. Never felt remotely safe in his presence. I was so freaked out I filed a sexual harrassment case with HR and won. He terrified me. Still makes the hairs at the back of my neck stand up just thinking of him. I was in my early thirties, he was around 40.

Boss #4 is also married with children. Very tactile. Sometimes flirtatious. I reciprocate. Love him to bits and would jump off a cliff for him. Not remotely creepy. Our relationship is one of deep mutual respect and personal affection. Would not dream of taking it further, and neither would he, because we're both halfway decent people. Would also never get myself into a situation where this was an option because, yes, there is some mutual attraction, too.

Long story short: the same thing, coming from different individuals, can trigger very different emotional reactions.

It's quite visceral for me personally. I can't really put a finger on what makes the difference.

In the Gift of Fear de Becker says of forced teaming "the simple defence is to make a clear refusal to accept the concept of partnership: "I did not ask for your help and I do not want it"." We may feel that sounds rude but as de Becker says "if people would view forced teaming as the inappropriate behaviour it is, we might feel less concern about appearing rude in response". It's advice that stuck with me and has helped me on numerous occasions over the years.

Juells yes, in Ireland, catholic nuns were VERY handy with their fists, rulers, blackboard dusters, books, really any object that came to hand. I was beaten black and fucking blue with little ir o warning by more than one nun as were countless others. Have u been living under a rock?

@Juells off topic but really?!
Have you not heard of the sisters of mercy abuse scandals?!

Have you not heard of the sisters of mercy abuse scandals?!

😲 Have to admit I haven't. And it was Sisters of Mercy that ran the school I went to from four to eighteen. 😲

I must have lived in a very belligerent town because several times parents came barging into our class and giving the nun what for, if their child was smacked. "I'll tear the veil off your baldy oul' head" was the favourite threat.

Ah, I've googled it now.

@Juells Are nuns bald?
I was going to ask if it was just your nun that was bald but by god, that sounded rude

Juells 800 dead babies in a pit in Tuam? The Magdalene laundries? The experiences of most people educated by the catholic clergy in recent living memory?
So, the nuns in tiur school did hit kids but the parents came in and gave out about it? But the hitting happened?

Side note. The nuns I had were bald. Heads more or less shaven under their veils. Bit of a fringe at the front but nothing round the back.
One nun had tantrums and would RIP off her veil. It was like seeing Darth Vader without his helmet. Shocked the shit out of us.
In this way, we learned that a complete, lose your shit rage was perfectly acceptable because nuns did them.

Well that’s a revelation.
Every day’s a school day

Thegullfromhull
Are nuns bald?
I was going to ask if it was just your nun that was bald but by god, that sounded rude

I think they used to shave their heads, that was my understanding anyway. So 'baldy oul' head' was the go-to insult. I remember the nun who taught maths was always trying to rub the veil around on her head, as if her scalp itched with hair growing back in.

lolaflores
So, the nuns in tiur school did hit kids but the parents came in and gave out about it? But the hitting happened?

Who are you, the fucking Inquisition?

Barracker something really similar happened to me at the same age.
I can remember seeing him, knowing instantly, realising I was quite alone ( it was about 8.30 pm and dark), thinking do I run? and then when he grabbed me, thinking he wants to kill me. I felt very strongly I was in a life or death situation.
Then the frozen moment after I kicked and yelled, where we stood facing each other, and he ran off.

I'm ashamed to say I didn't even call the police.
I did tell my mum when I got home who sort of..I don't really know..didn't hear me? That seems odd but I know I told her. Nobody suggested doing anything about it. I still walked home from that job for a year after (after school job).
Not thought about that for years.
I'm not traumatised, I'm fine, but after that I always said to myself 'if you have that split second thought of do I run, then bloody run!'
I have pretty finely tuned instincts about people on the whole and even when they seem fine at first I am always right in the end. I tell dc to ALWAYS trust that prickly feeling. And then stay away from whoever causes it.

Oh lots of scary nuns while I was typing that!