“He makes the hair on the back of my neck stand up” - warning signs you have observed

[AnyOldPrion]

Thanks to the Relationships board, I now have a better understanding of the red flags that can occur early in a relationship that indicate risk.

But it crossed my mind earlier that sometimes there are men (and possibly women) who set off instincts that make us feel unsafe.

Please don’t mention any names, or specific people, but what signs have you noticed that might consciously or subconsciously have triggered that response?

I’m personally not good at this, but I will try to start with a couple of things. These are things that happen when I’m in the same space as someone, but sometimes I have that reaction to photographs or recordings and I’m not sure why. I’d love to be able to understand what it is I’m picking up on.

Standing a little too close and/or moving towards me when I have moved away.

Being watched/stared at/eyes wandering.

Not backing off when asked.

Thanks in advance to anyone more observant.

Juells just wondering about the conditions at your school as you so airily dismissed the account I gave of mine as weird and probably ly unlikely. Which I found annoying.
Ok

Someone I used to work with always made me feel on edge. To most , she appears to be kind , sweet and hard working.

What I see is a person that really NEEDS people to like her. She buys people gifts (tat that you'd never need in a shiny gift bag) a lot , she tries to manipulate others in to doing her work for her.

The term for this behavior is 'favor sharking'.
It is often a companion to what is called 'love bombing' in the abuse recovery community.

I once had a real gut instinct situation at a busstop.

I got off the bus and there were two ways I could take. I chose the shortest one and about three seconds into my walking I noticed three black teenagers hanging around a bit further on.

I had such a strong physical gut reaction I felt almost nauseous.

Unfortunately I had recently attended a workshop by a colleague about unconscious bias, so I told myself to not be ridiculous, they were just three black lads and this was one of those unconscious bias situations and I am not a racist.

As I walked past the youngest lad turned towards me and asked if he could use my phone, almost half blocking my path.

Because I was on high alert I said no and briskly continued, all the while sporting my toughest face.

I am 100% convinced that I would have been mugged had I even hesitated for a second.

When I drove past ten minutes later one of them was on his phone. There was just something about this group that set off all my instincts. I have wondered since if this was the boy's first attempt at mugging, he was very young, like 12.

Just wanted to add that I have not had such a strong reaction since, but if I ever have it again I will not ignore my feelings, ever!

Hideous experience, Hepzibah.

It really does feel in that moment like the attack you've been braced for is here and this might be how it all ends.

I escaped unscathed and am in no way comparing myself to women who didn't.
I do wish I had the closure of knowing whether it really was this serial attacker from the eighties, who is serving thirteen life sentences, or whether it was a different man. I don't think I'll get that ever though.

I agree with the run if you can.

@BertieBotts I read your post and couldn't agree more. My abusive ex had a cold, dark look in his eyes that is difficult to articulate but used to let me know there was danger every time. Even if I hadn't seen him all day, he could walk in with that look and I knew to be frightened. My stepdad was violent and abusive and although I never specifically saw it, my mum described the same thing for when he was angry too. If I saw that look again it would terrify me.

It really does feel in that moment like the attack you've been braced for is here and this might be how it all ends.
YY. That exactly.
I know what you mean about closure. I felt guilty about never giving the police a description of that particular attacker (not my last ever assault but definitely the scariest in terms of obvious intention). He could have 'got lucky' the very same night. So many missing girls, who knows.

When I was about 14 on holiday in France with my family, me and my older sister went just off the camp site to look at a pony in the neighbouring field. An old French bloke came over and started talking to us. I didn’t like the look of him so I watched him like a hawk. We didn’t really understand what he was saying but then he just took hold of my sister, then picked her up. I was like wtf? Then he put her down and before I could move he grabbed me and did the same. When he put me down he moved behind me on the blind side of my sister and grabbed my left breast. I swung my elbow back into him and told him to get off, then wheeled around but he walked off a bit sharpish.

After he left my sister was like ‘why did he just take off like that?’ I told her what he’d done And she was shocked. I think she just thought he was a bit eccentric. I on the other hand was bricking it. We never told our parents. We knew full well we’d get the blame, we’d not be allowed out on our own and it would somehow be our fault, plus my dad probably would have gone looking for him and beat the shit out of him if he’d found him, then he’d have been arrested in a foreign country, then we’d get the blame for ruining the holiday as well.

When I was growing up I was always told in no uncertain terms by my mother especially that my opinions didn’t count for anything, and if she didn’t see a problem then i was the problem if I wasn’t happy. I suppose that’s the reason why I ignored my instincts for so long, because I’d been taught that they were wrong.

When I was 14/15 I had a guitar teacher who’d come round to our house each week. I was obsessed with guitars and desperate to learn how to play so I admired him because he could do what I wanted to be able to do. I was in awe of him I guess. Anyway he’d hang around and talk to my parents. My dad didn’t like him much but my mum was dazzled by him. he dropped a few names and she thought he was amazing.

Anyway he seemed to take an interest in me, said I was talented etc. My parents used to go away most weekends so he’d come round and stay late. My sister was always out so I was alone. He never tried anything but he wasn’t exactly discrete about his intentions. I remember him babbling something about being amorous but I didn’t know what that meant, and one time he even said something about waiting until I was 16. I was so naive, I didn’t have a clue what he was on about.

Anyway he started inviting me to his flat, under the guise of extra tuition. I went once and no guitar playing occurred at all. Instead he gave me wine which I hardly touched and sat and chatted. When I got home my dad went mad saying he was a paedo and I wasn’t going near him again. As far as I know he rang him and threatened him if he ever came near me again. I never saw his face again thank god.

All this got dredged up again last year and I was freaked out. I thought grooming was something that happened to other girls, but then I realised it had happened to me as well. I’d kind of buried it for years but it all came flooding back. I rang my mum and asked her about it. She seemed utterly clueless, couldn’t really remember what had happened and didn’t see a problem. It’s a good job my dad was looking out for me otherwise god knows what would’ve happened.

It’s not surprising I had no boundaries because my mother is the sort of person who worships anybody she sees as having status. Even now she seems utterly devoid of judgement and gets sucked in by all sorts of dodgy shit. My dad was more the call us slags for wearing revealing clothes kind of man. he’d blame us for being in the wrong place at the wrong time etc but would have beat the shit out of any bloke that touched us. It was a very stifling environment so we kept most of what happened to us to ourselves for fear of causing trouble.

Anyway, sorry for the essay.

An ex, who is a gifted liar....I just always felt something wasnt quite right.
Just after we met, and when I realised he "liked" me, I had a dream where he kissed me, and I ( in my dream) felt complete and utter revulsion in every bit of my mind/ body/soul.

I wish I had listened.
Before we got together, I walked in to where we both worked. He was sitting with a female colleague, chatting. He was completely splayed out. Like, if he was a puppy, he would have been on his back asking for belly rubs.
She, however was tucked up in the chair, legs curled up to her chest, arms wrapped around herself.
I still think back on it, and think it's one of the oddest things I've seen/ felt.

This is such an interesting and instructive thread.

As a primary school teacher I’ve taught a small number of children who have worried me very much indeed, in the sense of creeping me out rather than making me merely pessimistic about their chances of keeping out of trouble when they’re an adult. How is it that a seven-year-old knows exactly which of his peers to target? How do they already know who will suffer in silence? Why do they already look like a predator stalking its prey in the playground?

I teach overseas, so our community is a bit of a bubble & for those of us who are single, we definitely have an eye for interesting newbies every August.

A few years ago, a chap I'll call Jack started work. Very ordinary looking BUT he had astonishing, piercing blue eyes.

I remember talking to a couple of single, female colleagues (ok ok,we were basically triaging the new male colleagues in terms of snog, marry, avoid...)

Jack's name came up & the verdict was 'not attractive, boring looking' I said oh I agree he's not particularly good looking but he does have AMAZING eyes, to be fair. My colleagues teased me that I should ask him out.

I didn't. Too busy with other stuff. Forgot all about it - Jack worked in a different department, so our paths only crossed occasionally anyway.

Over the next few weeks, Jack worked his way through several of the single women on the staff - he seemed to get one date & then be knocked back - he made several of my friends uncomfortable, but they couldn't quite put their finger on why.

Anyway. Eventually he got round to chatting me up, at a staff party. By this point I'd gone off any initial attraction based on his striking eyes & knew him well enough from a couple of friends who'd been for a pint with him, & his endless innuendos in conversation, to have decided that he was a bit of a tiresome sleaze.

So I declined his suggestion that we should share a taxi back to his apartment.

He then proposed that we share a taxi anyway (our accommodation is all in the same area). Spidey sense said no. He was quite persistent.

Suddenly, he gave me the actual heebies. I went from 'slightly sleazy dull colleague who is trying it on, meh no thanks' to 'woah absolutely NO way am I getting in a car with you.'

A couple of weeks later he sexually assaulted a colleague in similar circumstances & was fired. At this point it turned out that he'd skated RIGHT up to the edge with various other colleagues he'd dated - nothing they could put a finger on, but an instinctive sense that they didn't feel particularly safe around him.

It came out in the wash that the sixth form girls had plenty to say about this guy, too. Again, nothing tangible - creepy comments they didn't quite feel amounted to something they could complain about.

It was the eyes that gave him away to me. When I declined his suggestion of a taxi share plus 'coffee' despite his persistence, they went - sharky. Dead. I knew, somehow, it wasn't a good idea to listen to 'no worries, I'll drop you off'.

& there was nothing concrete to object to about this guy - yes, he asked lots of women out, but he was a single man, looking for a girlfriend as far as anyone knew - right up until the time he lunged at my friend in a taxi. But that sense was there - & with hindsight, it's worrying how many of us smelt something 'off' & dismissed it.

RE Forced teaming, and I'm definitely thinking of people who do it here as an example, the thing is that it doesn't feel like a normal conversational flow where you bring up A and I offer back B in response thinking that it might be something we share an interest in and it continues from there. It's subtly unnerving right from the start because it's more like you bring up A, I very pointedly don't respond or try to change the subject, then you bring up A again more insistently, and continue to do so in the face of either a complete lack of reciprocation or clear awkwardness, like the conversational equivalent of a forced smile. You make it as clear as you can without outright saying "stop that" that you don't want to be having the "us" conversation and the other person keeps doing it anyway.

At that point you can either continue trying to deflect until you can exit the conversation or point out that there is no us with whatever degree of firmness you feel able to manage. Or blank the person and talk to someone else if there are other people around.

An acquaintance kept trying to talk to me but he made my skin crawl. Just had a really threatening “aura”.
Later learned that he “allegedly” raped someone a couple of years ago

Sulks when you talk about/visit male friends

Gets angry and kicks/ slams/ hits inanimate objects.

Yes. In a potential partner, disproportionate level of anger when you say no to something is a huge red flag.

One day as I left a room, I looked back and he was eyeing me up like prey. I massively fancied him at the time and it still made me feel uncomfortable.

Hardly any people in his life, nobody really stuck around and I didn’t really understand why. I do now, of course.

Other than that, everything he told me about himself was the biggest clue. I just didn’t listen because I was infatuated with him.

The problem of being conditioned to be polite and ignore our boundaries has been mentioned a few times, but has anyone else had experience of trying to manage an aggressor by avoiding confrontation, or using politeness to avoid escalation? It took a lot of therapy for me to appreciate that some of my reactions, that seemed so frustratingly docile, were probably life saving. But it’s such a fine line between the two.

I've played dumb, like pretended not to understand the innuendos being dropped so the person is forced to either get more and more specific or give up in embarrassment. That's actually more passive aggressive than passive though, or in intent just plain aggressive.

That's the irony, innit? We were taught to be appeasing and conciliatory as a survival strategy without being told why, so we end up with a dangerous unattainable sex role stereotype instead of a lesson on when in danger when in doubt run in circles scream and shout.

I was half listening to a programme on the radio this morning and it said that when you smile genuinely, there are muscles around your eyes that you can't control. They move with emotion basically. If you smile too long, it becomes a grimace. Humans are very adept at recognising fake/too long smiles even if we're not consciously aware of it.

Can I just say how powerful conversations like this are. One of the themes that I've noticed cropping up is once a woman vocalises her misgivings, there is almost permission given for other women to speak too. This is a really valuable clue about the power of women talking to each other. This thread is a hard read - I went to sleep last night feeling really upset at the steady stream of commonplace incidents we are all describing. But this kind of sharing, and the really great analysis and useful pointers in trusting your gut and resisting your socialization, this is exactly why female spaces - not just safety things, but places where women can talk to each other about their experiences - are profoundly important in our general liberation.

It's the essence of Jane Clare Jones's 'Puuuullll!' to me.

It's what second wave consciousness raising groups were based on too. And it's why some men are absolutely determined that we shouldn't be allowed to have those spaces.

I've noticed that decent men instinctively back off when they sense that kind of space happening. Not doing so is another one of those signs to watch out for because it indicates all kinds of potentially worrying and dangerous things about the man in question.

I have encountered face flicking in three men who turned out abusive. No idea why, maybe boundary testing. They either flicked fingers or object (like car keys)

No idea what that is all about

That was in that episode of Sherlock -the Magnus Whatsit one-face flicking.
I think those things are quite blatant though. What's harder to pin down is the prickle. It's essential to trust yourself when on the surface everything is fiiine.
I am extremely lucky (so far) in that, despite being told all the time to ignore my instincts and that uncle Knobhead, or whoever, was just being friendly and I mustn't be sooo rude, I somehow missed the "female socialisation" and ended up a narky sod. I have no trouble asserting my boundaries much to the horror of my mother!

I think the key is that "am I being rude if I don't go along with this?" moment. The answer is, why does it matter? Better rude than dead.