"Girls are skipping school to avoid sharing gender neutral toilets with boys" - Mail on Sunday article

[Sunkisses]

Great article in the Mail on Sunday today about the awful impacts on girls of being forced to share loos with boys at school. With quotes from a female GP about the health and psychological impacts of girls not having single-sex loos, Stephanie Davies-Arai from Transgender Trend, and David Davies MP

www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-7542005/Girls-skipping-school-avoid-sharing-gender-neutral-toilets-boys.html

There is no way. Ever . That doubling the number of people using the toilets eliminates bullying.

Either the bullies are now the ones uncomfortable and not using the toilets

The boys think.its great that they get to pee with the girls. And the girls are too scared to speak up.

Or

They are designed in such a way that it's an improvement on the old design. Maybe they contain.sinks and have floor to ceiling doors and are kept far cleaner.

They open out onto the corridor rather than being inside a room so to speak

And their are more safety measures put in place like more staff walking past more often etc

And all of those could have been done whilst maintaining single sex spaces.

Baguetteaboutit geojellyfish

No what's batshit is you pretending that any of these problems have only started since the introduction of mixed sex toilets, conveniently ignoring that the problems of students avoiding using toilets has always gone on because of the problem of bullying.

You want to blame trans gender people and males for every problem in society and this issue gives you the ideal opportunity to do so whilst conveniently ignoring the fact that for so many of us the bullies at school were other girls.

We didn't have, and still do not have any trans gender students at the school that I have most to do with and so the only consideration for changing the toilets was to do with making them safer and more user friendly. This idea was put forward and the students said that's what they wanted.

So far the feedback is positive. They still have a block of single sex toilets if they want to use them. Many don't.

What you are saying is that by having single sex toilets the issue will disappear

No

We are discussing risk reduction and harm reduction

It is this bonkers black and white thinking and inability to understand class analysis that got us to this mess in the first place.

Yes, some teenaged girls are aresholes, and will bully other girls in the loos. I think most of us have experienced that at some point in our school career. Adding boys does not reduce the risk of bullying, nor does it lessen the harm it The risk of bullying greater, and causes more harm.

So, are boys expected to stop girls bullying other girls and vice versa? How's that working out for you?

*Clearly there are girls, and boys, who will avoid using mixed sex toilets. I'm not disputing that.

But there are also many girls and boys who avoid using single sex toilets.*

If this were just a logistical equation and you were under the impression that both these groups were equally represented then the school would not have seen an overall drop in attendance.

But girls have stopped attending because they do not feel safe to deal with their periods in a mixed sex environment. Is that ok with you?

They are designed in such a way that it's an improvement on the old design. Maybe they contain.sinks and have floor to ceiling doors and are kept far cleaner.

They open out onto the corridor rather than being inside a room so to speak

And their are more safety measures put in place like more staff walking past more often etc

And this is exactly what it is like.

And all of those could have been done whilst maintaining single sex spaces.

I'm interested in this point. What do you mean? Have 1 set as described above for girls and then another in a different place for boys? Is that what you mean?

That's an interesting point but would it be any different to the design that we have? How do you think that would make them more acceptable?

But mixed sex toilets in the schools that I know of were introduced to try to eradicate problems

Much more likely it was to save money on school buildings during the free for all created by the BSF programme.

If not it is a bloody stupid solution to the cited problem. Maybe they thought kids wouldn't report bullying so much if they had sexual.harrassment and assault to contend with.

The question is really why is there such a mushrooming of young people who want to be a different sex? I think the whole notion of mixed sex toilets is appalling. Likewise mixed wards. I remember my elderly grandmother being incredibly upset about having to go into a ward with men . We are living in an absolutely crazy world.
If someone is transitioning, they need to use the toilet appropriate to their birth identity until they have had surgery, and even then that's an issue.

This resonants with me. My DD went to a school that was rebuilt during her time there and the new build had unisex toilets, these were to be used by both staff and kids, floor to ceiling cubicles - open corridor and hand wash area etc to prevent bullying. There was no talk of the reason being to accommodate transgender pupils at the time.

She refused to use them and as a result contracted quite a nasty UTI towards the end of her time there. I remember posting at the time and being told by one poster I had obviously brought my DD up to have toilet issues! I used them myself when they were deserted on parents evening and saw nothing wrong with them, but thought the perception of young teenagers is completely different.

There are unisex loos at a new build office I sometimes work at. These have a wash basin and mirror within the actual cubicle. While it is a little odd walking into the toilet next door to a bloke, they do not smell and are otherwise OK.

I used a unisex loo at a council building in London recently which had a mixed handwash area and that did make me uncomfortable. Not sure why. I guess I am used to having a female only space and I felt a bit vulnerable.

Just asked my ten year old if they would like to share a toilet with someone of the opposite sex the response was no yuck

I asked if people could change sex once they said no that's stupid

So, are boys expected to stop girls bullying other girls and vice versa? How's that working out for you? hmmconfused

It isn't the presence of boys that stops the bullying. It's the opening out of the toilets onto a main corridor so that there is no place that isn't observable by staff. No place where people up to no good can hide. Plus the cubicles are self contained floor to ceiling cubicles so no one can chuck things over the top or climb up and look at the person using the toilet or take photos. No one can cause trouble around the toilets without being seen by other people.

Let's look at the facts:

1. Schools are legally required to provide single sex toilets for children over 8. Any unisex space must be fully enclosed including a sink.
2. Sexual harassment of girls in schools is an epidemic- one third of girls 16-18 have experienced "unwanted sexual touching" ie assault at school.
3. In the UK 90% of assaults in changing rooms happen in mixed sex spaces because of the increased opportunity for offenders
4. Now we're seeing reports that children of both sexes are restricting fluid intakes to avoid mixed sex toilets due to feeling uncomfortable.

So mixed sex toilets are not lawful, increase the already high chances of harassment and sexual assault and are so disliked by pupils of both sexes when introduced that they make themselves ill to avoid them. So very progressive.

Have 1 set as described above for girls and then another in a different place for boys? Is that what you mean?

Errr. Yeah. Single sex toilets. Like they have just about everywhere.

So basically they are single occupancy fully enclosed facilities that open into corridors and you have safety measures in place

That's a huge far cry from toilets that open out into communal wash areas that are being installed in many schools.

But girls have stopped attending because they do not feel safe to deal with their periods in a mixed sex environment. Is that ok with you?

We haven't had this issue at all. In fact we've had the opposite - attendance has improved and incidents of bullying has greatly decreased.

Many people on here are minimising the effects of bullying, particularly if done by girls. The effects can be devastating on the child being bullied.

For those saying that mixed sex toilets are like mixed sex wards - in the schools that I know of they aren't in any way comparable.

We haven't just converted a previously single sex toilet block into mixed sex. They are completely self contained toilets that open onto a corridor. You have no idea who, if anyone, is in the cubicle next door. It's not like only having a curtain between you and the patient next to you. Not are you in a room, shut away with a bit in one cubicle and a girl in another.

TequilaPilates you say your schools still offer single sex facilities, which is great. I'm not anti mixed sex facilities at all, I'm anti elimination of single sex facilities.

You cannot compare the feedback you have received in schools with all options to what this survey shows us about schools where they have removed single sex provision.

Is the positive feedback because the new facilities are mixed sex or because the facilities themselves are simply better designed? I suspect the latter, but please feel free to explain why the mixed sex element is pivotal to the positivity.

So basically they are single occupancy fully enclosed facilities that open into corridors and you have safety measures in place

Yes. Exactly that.

Errr. Yeah. Single sex toilets. Like they have just about everywhere.

The trans lobby won't accept that. They're the problem!

I know that. I was wondering why a pp was behaving as though this was some radical new concept in building design.

If someone is transitioning, they need to use the toilet appropriate to their birth identity until they have had surgery, and even then that's an issue.

How can that work if someone was born a boy but acts and dresses like a girl. Can you imagine that person trying to use a boy's toilet whilst wearing a skirt/dress? It's just a recipe for bullying and abuse.

Is the positive feedback because the new facilities are mixed sex or because the facilities themselves are simply better designed? I suspect the latter, but please feel free to explain why the mixed sex element is pivotal to the positivity

Its bloody obvious isnt it..many would prefer fully enclosed cubicles that are kept cleaner and area patrolled more. who would even really notice they were mixed sex provisions.

This isnt what is being done in many schools. They are rooms with no doors that open out onto communal.sinks. they are basically in a.room.together.

No school in this country has introduced mixed sex toilets simply to stop girls bullying other girls. It's pure fantasy.
One of the leading retailers of toilets (skin in the game obviously) tells schools that these improve bullying but this doesn't stack up when you look at data about bullying.
Toilets (and changing rooms) are places of anxiety and bullying for many children and the solutions include top grade facilities that encourage children to treat them with respect, location that enables effective adult supervision and a good anti bullying policy that encourages bystander intervention and promotes an ethos of respect. Forcing girls and boys to share toilets relies on humiliation and embarrassment as tools to ensure that children don't congregate in out of the way places.

The only reason that mixed sex toilets got any traction is because lobby groups were allowed to a) groom schools into believing that eradicating single sex spaces was a 'kind' thing to do and b) lie to schools about the law, especially the Equality Act.

Girls bullying other girls is not solved with mixed sex toilets. (I can't believe this even has to be said).

Thank god I do not work in a state school where this madness is being implemented without a thought for girls' safety and well being.

How can that work if someone was born a boy but acts and dresses like a girl. Can you imagine that person trying to use a boy's toilet whilst wearing a skirt/dress? It's just a recipe for bullying and abuse.

This is not a problem for girls to solve FFS.

Is the positive feedback because the new facilities are mixed sex or because the facilities themselves are simply better designed? I suspect the latter, but please feel free to explain why the mixed sex element is pivotal to the positivity.

I'm really not getting the "mixed sex" emphasis here.

The toilets are better designed. That's a fact. The improvement is that they are private and open directly onto a main corridor and so eliminate any potential for bullies to congregate there.

I'm not sure how we could offer the same but one set for boys and one separate set for girls. There's not another place in school that provides the same opportunity for supervision and they were expensive to build. I don't consider them mixed sex. Sure, a boy might use 1 while a girl uses another but neither can hear or see the other and they aren't enclosed anywhere together.

I have no.knowledge of any school that has implemented mixed sex toilets using any other design than these tbh. I wouldn't get on board with an old style single sex toilet block being made mixed sex eg a large room containing multiple cubicles now being open to both boys and girls. That removes none of the ranges of single sex toilets ie opportunities for bullying and just introduces many more dangers but the new designs that I've see. I think are a huge improvement.

Then what are you on about then tequila
You dont consider them.mixed sex and the toilets are clean and well designed in a way that's far better the rooms with gaps under doors where people can congregate.

As long as they were kept clean no one would have a huge problem.with the set up.

None of what you have said is relevant then to the issue of mixed sex toilets yet you use it to prove some bizarre point that everyones basically bonkers and girls bully too