Famous men and surrogacy

[Annasgirl]

OK, so this is not to bash the specific person involved but last night I was heading to bed and a story came up on my phone - a person from Westlife was announcing the birth of their baby - through surrogacy (he is gay) and showed a pic of him, his boyfriend and the baby - there was no mother.

So, I totally lost it and poor DH had to listen to me rant for about an hour - but when, oh God, when, are we going to stand up and be counted and take back the rights of women and children?????

DH mentioned that there will always be women poor enough to agree to do this and I countered that you cannot sell a kidney (legally) or buy one so why should you be able to buy or sell a baby???????

BTW, DH agrees with me, but why do I feel I am the only person alive who is angry about this?

And I live in Wokesville (AKA Ireland) and I am worried that we are so keen to be woke and the most liberal place to be gay in the world, that we will soon legalise surrogacy or at least make it easy for people to legally buy a baby overseas and then take it home here. That is what the person was arguing for on his gushing post.

It’s very simple
“Mummy why don’t The Boys” have children?”
“Because only women can grow and give birth to a baby sweetheart “
(But dont worry as Mummy is planning to sell them one)

Where on earth were the 'boys' living that make adopting difficult because of their sexuality? Not an issue in the UK or Ireland. Adoption is very difficult in Ireland but not because of sexual orientation.

There is something about choosing surrogacy over adoption isn't there?

Is it cheaper, easier, are there fewer restrictions imposed? Fewer hoops to jump through? Looser laws?

Why can't adoption be the main route considered for couples who cannot conceive or birth a baby? Goodness knows there isn't a shortage of unloved, unwanted children in this world.

Surro's mates moved countries so their situation changed but still surrogacy was what they chose.

There is something about choosing surrogacy over adoption isn't there?

As my sister's MIL put it "Would you not look at surrogacy so it would at least be one of yours?" (ie her son's sperm would be used). Apart from the biological input there is a naive and mis-informed view that surrogacy is less problematic than adoption because you're getting a newborn and not an older baby or toddler. So of course it will be fine, no attachment issues, no questions about your parents, just a blank slate. And if you're doing it in a country where there's no proper framework then the irritating administration, vetting and legalities of adoption can be avoided.

It makes me so angry on so many levels.

Oh dear.

I missed the bit where a mother tells her babies that she gives her babies away to friends.

How extremely unsettling for her own dc. That she might just as easily give them away

Very stupid and naïve explanation to a 6 yo.

Laydeees indeed

@TruthOnTrial

I agree. Even if the kid seems 'fine' with being told that her mother is pregnant with a baby in exactly the same way she was once pregnant with her - except that this time she's going to give the baby away - who knows how that might affect her deep down?

But who cares about the children eh? Either those who already exist or those being brought into existence to satisfy the selfish desires of adults. It's all about them.

Anyone supporting surrogacy is ignorant of realities that really need shoving down their throats before such a grave undertaking is taken so lightly.

Poor poor babies, traded. Shame on the states legalising baby trade.

It's hard to believe.

How great the U S of A is, once again leading the progessive way. sarcastic obvs

Shame on them. This all gets paid for in the long run, in people's lives.

I think as well we need to think not just about the attachment at the moment of birth between mother and child but what comes afterwards.

Pregnancy and birth physically prime the bonding process between mother and child. I am sure there are many women who had plans about routines etc from reading books only to find they had an absolutely visceral reaction to their baby's cry complete with milk suddenly drenching their shirt. I couldn't leave mine even with their father to pop to the shops for the first few weeks as I felt like something was missing.

I have a husband who is a very caring and involved father but I would say our children were around a year when the father child bond started to approach the mother child bond in strength.

Perhaps it's this delay in attachment that could cause problems. Obviously there are cases of delay in the attachment forming between mother and baby like illness or post natal depression. But why would we want to do this on purpose?

But why would we want to do this on purpose?

Exactly. And this is the response to all the "whataboutery" relating to adoption, illness, PND and any number of other things that may interfere with bonding/attachment.

Garden man and others pro surrogacy

I don’t think anyone here would try to argue that everyone involved in surrogacy is an abused victim. Clearly some people want to be surrogates and some people want to use surrogates.

However in law we do not only consider the group of people who “want to do something”. We have to consider the effects on everyone.

What about the child? In reproductive technologies in general, the child cannot consent. Would a child consent to surrogacy if able? We don’t know.

What about the costs to society? Are the additional children produced via surrogacy worth the burden to society in terms of resources including environmental impacts? Would we be better served spending surrogacy resources on better promoting and facilitating adoption?

What about people who are victimized by surrogacy? Head in the sand is not an acceptable response. If we are to build an ethical system for surrogacy, how do we build it to optimally protect the vulnerable parties (surrogate mothers, their families, and the child).

It is in this context that women here object to the proposed changes. Not because we are “homophobes”

By the way to another posters comment about whether two men should raise a child, the evidence is that two parents of any sex are about equally good in terms of measurable outcomes. Children of Single parents of either sex do measurably worse for resource (time/money) related reasons.

Recent research actually shows improved outcomes for dc in single mum situations.

There is a huge power imbalance between surrogates and the buying parents.

One of the principles being directly targetted is that of the surrogate mother to not hand over her baby.

Who in their right mind thinks that ok to challenge. Its the only safeguard for mother and baby!

I've finally completed the consultation! Phew!

The payment bit was obviously pushing for commercial surrogacy and the bit about when the child has access to information about their birth was quite upsetting too.

Some of the questions didn't even make sense but I was determined to keep going, you can see how easy it would be not to bother and it's trust that government bodies will do the right thing.

For the record I don't care a bit of the 'intended parents' are same sex or not, I'm more concerned about the baby and the mother.

I know Surro has gone now but if she's lurking I hope her baby doesn't miss her and grows up healthy and happy isn't hurt in any way by the way in which he or she came into the world. I also hope she is healthy and doesn't have any complications or issues with recovery or returning to work. Many of us on here have been there and whilst I disagree completely with her decision I recognise that it is her body. It doesn't sit well with me at all but I am glad she answered my questions and I wish her no ill-will.

Surrosmith''s world sounds jolly nice doesn't it? I'm picturing a cross between a Hovis ad and Ballykissangel.

Even down to the really sympathetic and understanding employer and co-workers who aren't in the least bit bothered about taking on extra work so "the boys" can get their baby.

I was thinking about the permitted "expenses" thing in the UK. What expenses does a pregnant woman have which a non- pregnant woman doesn't?

All I could come up with were half a dozen or so taxi fares from work to ante- natal classes , 2 or 3 large cotton smock dresses near the end and a couple of pairs of cheap, flat shoes because my feet went up half a size. Doubt if it was more than a couple of hundred quid.

Presumably not being able to work for a few weeks at least. Or is her employer expected to cover that?

I;d guess she's getting government maternity pay isn't she? I think it's the tax payer ponying up for that particular expense

Expenses wise I would stretch to a few massages and some stretch mark cream, post birth I figured breast and maternity pads...work wise I think Surro expected to be back after a few weeks, would have to check her posts. Her employer would have to find a place for her to pump...is there a formal surrogacy leave policy that employers have to have, it's not the same as mat leave as there is no baby to look after, at least not one living with you and depriving you of sleep.

Overall I can't see where these figure figure sums come from to cover 'expenses', my pregnancy didn't cost me that much, where are they getting their maternity clothes from?

This is ridiculous. Not the story, the post and all it’s supporters. You have no right to say that someone should or shouldn’t have kids. I’d rather a family be born into a home with two fathers (my kids have two mums by the way AND we know their dad who is married to a man!) than someone who is going to abuse or neglect them.

I am also a surrogate. I am helping a couple fulfil their 8 year dream of being a family. Surrogates can be taken advantaged of, but so can the intended parents. For the few ‘bad eggs’ there are thousands of good ones. You’re using this as an excuse to spout rubbish.

No one asked for your bigoted opinion and no one actually cares what you think. Hate breeds hate. Take a long look in the mirror because the only thing that should bother you is yourself.

is it some sort of tag team arrangement do you think?

@BernardBlacksWineIceLolly - Yes I was about to say thank God, we've lost one or two but then another pops up.

Do you think they have a google alert to prompt the posts?

No one asked for your bigoted opinion and no one actually cares what you think

The Law Commission (of England and Wales) and The Scottish Law Commissioner issued a lengthy joint consultation document on surrogacy open to any interested member of the public.

Another the point here is that the law must be written to protect people involved. This proposal aims to strip protections from the vulnerable party (surrogates and their families, including the child).

Why do you want to take away legal protections for the surrogate mother? The only conceivable benefit is monetary for the couple. The worst case for the couple now is they enter a surrogacy arrangement and don’t end up with a baby. A Financial loss. The worst case for the mother, currently, is death or permanent disability.

How is it not clear who has the upper hand in this arrangement?

Unless you know the woman or the situation behind this story, I suggest you keep your comments to yourself. I am going to be a surrogate for a couple. It is MY choice, I am NOT the mother. Just because you give birth to a child doesn’t make you a mum. Just like fathering a child doesn’t make you a dad. Most surrogates are gestational which means the woman carrying the baby isn’t even genetically linked to him/her. You’re allowing your personal opinion impact on the life of other people which is incredibly selfish. I don’t know of a single woman in the surrogacy world who has been forced into anything. I certainly haven’t been. I put myself out there as a surrogate as did every other woman I know. I chose to do this. Me. No one else and I don’t appreciate you or anyone else for that matter insinuating otherwise. Yes there are a few bad apples, as with ANY situation, surrogacy related or not, but for those few there are thousands of amazingly heart warming stories. My kids have two mums and know their dad and his husband. They know who they are and where they came from. The saying ‘it takes a village to raise a baby’ couldn’t be more apt for the surrogacy world. Try thinking of other people and keeping an open mind. You’d be surprised at what you might learn.

“ I am NOT the mother”

The DC may disagree.

Yes, those baby farms in India were full of volunteers, who had loads of other career options like CEO or Neuroscientist but selflessly chose surrogacy instead.