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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Famous men and surrogacy

660 replies

Annasgirl · 04/10/2019 10:43

OK, so this is not to bash the specific person involved but last night I was heading to bed and a story came up on my phone - a person from Westlife was announcing the birth of their baby - through surrogacy (he is gay) and showed a pic of him, his boyfriend and the baby - there was no mother.

So, I totally lost it and poor DH had to listen to me rant for about an hour - but when, oh God, when, are we going to stand up and be counted and take back the rights of women and children?????

DH mentioned that there will always be women poor enough to agree to do this and I countered that you cannot sell a kidney (legally) or buy one so why should you be able to buy or sell a baby???????

BTW, DH agrees with me, but why do I feel I am the only person alive who is angry about this?

And I live in Wokesville (AKA Ireland) and I am worried that we are so keen to be woke and the most liberal place to be gay in the world, that we will soon legalise surrogacy or at least make it easy for people to legally buy a baby overseas and then take it home here. That is what the person was arguing for on his gushing post.

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Tyrotoxicity · 08/10/2019 11:08

Barbara there's part of me that's glad no one's willing to pay that much money for a surrogate. It would make it too tempting a prospect for too many impoverished women.

I could see quite a lot of women who struggle to work weighing up whether it's worth being a surrogate once every few years simply in order to survive without being constantly at the mercy of the DWP. Be seen as a drain on society, or as a marvellously generous self-supporting citizen? A single mother with one child could spend close to a decade being harangued and pushed towards survival sex, or get the equivalent amount of money with one surrogacy.

It's a grim prospect.

3timeslucky · 08/10/2019 11:10

I'm a bit confused by your situation Surrosmith. The "boys" are somewhere same sex marriage isn't recognised and they can't both be on the birth cert but you're in the UK but you and your children are going to be close to this "team"/"cousin"?

Why have you always been involved in their discussions about these "boys" plans to have children? Surely the decision to adopt or not would have been a private discussion for them, not a "team" discussion?

I may have missed it, but are you related to one of them?

OhHolyJesus · 08/10/2019 11:16

It is chilling isn't Barbara so much of this case chilled me to my bones. The way the mother was spoken to and about was like she was 'disposable' to me. It wasn't at all like what Surro describes and whilst the same sort of risks apply Surro has private health care and a good relationship with the couple.

(On that note I don't know what happened to that woman who had a similar situation as Surro that Grace Dent interviewed, I wonder if she is still close friends with the couple who she couldn't produce a baby for. The programme ended with their choice to go elsewhere...I wonder if the friendship survived this...)

Surro would you mind saying publicly what your expenses payment will be and what it covers? I ask as I know my pregnancy didn't cost as much as the 5 figures payments paid to surrogates but then I didn't have IVF so I genuinely don't know what the payment is for.

I believe Elton John and David Furness (but we know who has the cash in that relationship) paid £20k to one surrogate. That is a lot of money and more than the usual but he is worth roughly £350m so he could afford the type of money you mention on behalf of Lass Barbara.

LangCleg · 08/10/2019 11:24

Following Lass's suggestion, I coated up 9 months 24/7, with time and a half for overnight and weekends, at NMW. It's comfortably over 100k. Plus I would say that commissioning parents should also have to pay for private healthcare during pregnancy and birth (so the NHS doesn't have to subsidise them). Plus insurance cover of one million for downstream health needs after birth/life insurance should the surrogate die.

UN hazard pay is about £1,200 per month. Add that in.

NotTonightJosepheen · 08/10/2019 11:24

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LangCleg · 08/10/2019 11:25

I'm a bit confused by your situation Surrosmith.

Me too. It's an awfully Hallmark-based narrative for all these complexities that are gradually being revealed.

Surrosmith13 · 08/10/2019 11:31

@NotTonightJosepheen I am born & bred in England. English is very much my first language however I can revert back to my secondary school times & converse slightly in German & French. Can’t say I’m 100% British though sorry - my Ancestry DNA profile shows that I have roots splattered all over Europe. Maybe that’s what you were attempting to dig at? The “Boys” have British passports however the strongest Irish accents I have ever heard - I have said “what?” quite a few times over the years 😂 So to answer your question - there will be no problem when Brexit (finally) gets sorted.

@3timeslucky They at the time we’re living/working where same sex marriage wasn’t recognised as people who could adopt. Which is awful but that’s just the way some places are 🤷🏽‍♀️ I’ve always been involved with their discussions because I’m their friend & they valued my opinion & thoughts on things. The same way I speak to friends & ask their opinions on things in my life. We all live in the UK now so there will be no issues for when the PO is granted ☺️

@OhHolyJesus I don’t want to share publicly no, however I will say that maybe Eltons surrogate lived in London (I do not) so the cost of living will be higher there. Expenses cover a whole host of things. Mine I would say are on the lower side as the only thing I felt that I needed what new maternity clothes (as I said previously my family is complete so I gifted ass these items on) and that’s it! Obviously you may know (or not) that a new fresh will to cover the surrogacy period is covered by the “boys” as are the payments for my life insurance x

TruthOnTrial · 08/10/2019 11:31

I’m just giving birth to my friends child because unfortunately they weren’t born with vaginas

No. They cannot conceive.

surro I hear that you have rationalised this to be doing the right and hugely magnanimous thing for 'friends'.

How do you rationalise the harms that taking a baby away from its mother at or shortly after birth causes a baby?

I think this must be hard to hear, but in the world of adoption and fostering it is a very well known syndrome that can commonly bring huge issues through adolescence as the developing child tries to emotionally mature against a backdrop of broken psychological attachment?

A baby knows its mother. It knows its mothers body instinctively, better than the dm herself, as it uses her heartbeat and breathing to help regulate its own erratic breathing after birth, and as a huge source of comfort and further stable attachment. It can smell and taste its mother. Immediately recognise her voice which has been there throughout the development of its sense, and everything that baby is has come from the mother's body.

It is not an egg being hatched, this is a real baby, and its fully aware when its ripped away from its only source of attachment to that point. Its first milk, vital colostrum, and the fourth trimester, also a vital part of its attachment development where all it does is move from inside the layers of muscles and skin, to outside, where its still close to mother's heart beat, skin, breathing, smell, and reassurance.

Not for nothing is skin to skin a profound experience and widely used for preemy babies to help them survive.

Its this kind of depth of knowledge, i.e. reality, that makes surrogacy such an awful proposition. Its creating, deliberately, awful issues. Issues for the baby. Theres no right for anyone to do that. There are enough issues already in the world for babies to grow up through.

Then there's the psychological and physical issues for the DM. These are your babies, that your body is growing. That your frankly, naïvety, seems to be arguing the case for.

This is a much more complex process than the simplistic view you have of it.

Baby suffers, dm suffers (but hopefully has the psychological and physical resilience to overcome), not exactly a win win is it?

The only winners are the people who have bought a baby, also without any insights into the complexities of realities.

Exactly as that picture portrays. Blithe ignorance, happy greedy people got what they wanted.

No surprise indeed that law change is being sought.

People like you surro are handing over womens rights on a plate to men with your attitudes.

I wont apologise if you don't like that we're not all fawning and grateful because you so magnanimously, again, came to bestow and share your huge wisdom and knowledge to us by simply answering some questions (without any curiosity to actually learn anything from anyone else, despite the breadth and depth of knowledge on here, not to mention personal experience).

Its no accident that this is currently law. The baby is bonded to its birth mother.

You can give your baby away to anyone, but doing that doesn't alter what that does to the baby who's mother you indeed are.

Why is this all about the poor menz...again! Angry

Jeez...this subject couldn't be more about babies and women!

Annasgirl · 08/10/2019 11:32

Surro had me until he/she mentioned the open door policy with her manager and her being a senior manager, who just happens to also take time out to be a surrogate for her gay best friends.

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NotTonightJosepheen · 08/10/2019 11:35

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RedToothBrush · 08/10/2019 11:36

So to answer your question - there will be no problem when Brexit (finally) gets sorted.

snorts

There's optimism for ya

TruthOnTrial · 08/10/2019 11:38

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3timeslucky · 08/10/2019 11:39

Surro had me until he/she mentioned the open door policy with her manager and her being a senior manager, who just happens to also take time out to be a surrogate for her gay best friends

Quite the workplace! Hmm

RedToothBrush · 08/10/2019 11:43

I have to say I find the psychological disassociate of surrogate mothers troubling when they say they are not the mother of a child they have given birth to.

I just think of adoptive children who are rejected by birth mothers and the impact that has on them.

To say you are point blank not the mother in any sense isnt something I can get my head around. That's worse than saying I was their birth mother, but legally and socially I'm not their mother and never will be.

It just smacks of an abdication of responsibility that still remains whether you like it or not, because 'reality'.

And yes that might mean you get children with an egg mother, a birth mother and a legal mother. To say acknowledging that is unimportant is to disregard how any surrogate child might feel in time. Its like the child's long term feelings are totally irrelevant and unimportant. And that I dislike intensely.

LangCleg · 08/10/2019 11:45

What rings loud and clear in all this Hallmark-infused kumbaya stuff is that the actual baby and its needs are the last thoughts in anybody's minds. I find it vile.

IcedPurple · 08/10/2019 11:46

Me too. It's an awfully Hallmark-based narrative for all these complexities that are gradually being revealed.

Yup. Not only have all her pregnancies been absolutely delightful, her existing children are absolutely thrilled with the news and her colleagues totally enthusiastic about her taking time off on maternity leave (although she claims not to be a mother to this child) for a child she is going to give away. Positively smashing!

Almost as good as the 'surro' who came on to tell us that her neighbours broke down in tears when told of the wonderful, selfless thing she was doing....

TruthOnTrial · 08/10/2019 11:48

Far from it being altruistic and generous, its entirely selfish.

Does anyone give a damn about the baby in all this?

Everyone busy talking about money, and work, and wills, and lovely friends, fanatasy land.

Put the baby front and centre. This is about babies, and their needs. Their needs are not best met this way.

That we can all surely agree on.

It doesn't meet the best needs of a woman to go through conception, pregnancy and childbirth, breastfeeding, with all the inherent risks either.

I have no mind to listen to menz complaining 'its so sad we can't have babies'. (we are on the hunt for any handmaidens to exploit, as we know they can give us what we want)

The statement about a £1,000 cap, says it all really.

There you have the attitude. Its not about what you say, but what you do. Thats the value placed right there £1,000 cap.

OhHolyJesus · 08/10/2019 11:51

Its also interesting that the couple who will have Surro a baby now live in the UK so adoption would not be an issue, did they move whilst you were pregnant or trying to get pregnant Surro? I ask as it seems this was a recent change and they may have other reasons for not adopting now that they love somewhere where they can adopt as same sex couple?

Also, more questions, is there any insurance or compensation if you have a complicated birth or suffer a birth injury? I imagine, as your work is understanding and supportive, you can take time off but are your friends going to pay you for earnings lost in this circumstance? Will your husband will be home to care for your children whilst you give birth or will he be with you and your friends will babysit your daughters?

Surrosmith13 · 08/10/2019 12:00

I don’t know if any of you think I’m not reading your posts/replies on here. But I am whilst respectfully taking them in.

But honestly I really did think this was a board/thread about views on surrogacy, NOT how I articulate or write? I do indeed have a string of qualifications & to slyly make a dig saying my written English isn’t up to scratch is a tad too personal for my liking.

To set the record straight, I am not management within the company I work for. I am however employed in a “senior” position. This hasn’t just given me a “golden path” to skip down to complete this journey. I haven’t had any favours, nor have I asked for any. As I said I am being treated the same as another other woman in the company who was or is for that matter pregnant.

I am now politely bidding you ladies a good day, I have genuinely enjoyed reading your thoughts & views on surrogacy. Not everyone thinks or feels the same, I simply joined this thread to give a point of view.

Take care & have a wonderful week.

LangCleg · 08/10/2019 12:00

We know that adopted people suffer disproportionately from identity formation and/or attachment issues. Same with children who have been brought up by kinship carers.

This happens regardless of when and how the child was told and how loving and supportive the home they were brought up in. And these are situations where there wasn't a choice of being brought up by birth parents.

Surrogates aren't doing a wonderful thing for the babies they give birth to.

Babies are not products.

LangCleg · 08/10/2019 12:01

ladies

I see a (respectful, LOL) flounce is in order.

IcedPurple · 08/10/2019 12:01

As I said I am being treated the same as another other woman in the company who was or is for that matter pregnant.

These women are usually known as 'mothers'.

SirVixofVixHall · 08/10/2019 12:08

It is reminding me of another thread where a poster talked at length about “surrobubs” 🤢 . I have seen in other situations that cutesy , babyish language is used to cover up deeply unpleasant things, like air freshener in a stinking room .

As a pp has just said, babies know their mothers, and we, as mothers know our babies. We know each other on a primal level, because we have been one and the same body. When sleeping with my babies, I would wake as they awoke to feed, before they made a noise, my sleeping body still linked with theirs. In fact I still can’t sleep if my dd can’t sleep, even though she sleeps in the room above me. When heavily pregnant for the first time, I could feel my daughter thinking.

The court case above is heartbreaking to read, and reminds me of a male couple, friends of my friend, who chose a specific poverty ridden country for their surrogate, because it was “the cheapest”.

TruthOnTrial · 08/10/2019 12:16

There were no sly digs it was queried outright based on your assertions of steings of qualifications. Nothing sly about it at all. The thread is all about surrogacy. You raised that you have a string of qualifications which isn't synoymous with poor written english. Which is what was pointed out.

Your posts are littered with crying laughing emojis, I ve seen nothing to be crying laughing over^

Nothing.

I don’t know if any of you think I’m not reading your posts/replies on here. But I am whilst respectfully taking them in

Noone is saying you are not reading. I really don't think you have taken in the gravity of the effects on babies of trwating them like a commodity and how selfish and damaging that is.

I can't blame you. I wouldn't want to hear that either having made your decision. I think its deluded, or at best naïve, to believe babies can be blithely treated like senseless objects and that no harm comes from this behaviour on the infant and its its development long term.

NotTonightJosepheen · 08/10/2019 12:25

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