Famous men and surrogacy

[Annasgirl]

OK, so this is not to bash the specific person involved but last night I was heading to bed and a story came up on my phone - a person from Westlife was announcing the birth of their baby - through surrogacy (he is gay) and showed a pic of him, his boyfriend and the baby - there was no mother.

So, I totally lost it and poor DH had to listen to me rant for about an hour - but when, oh God, when, are we going to stand up and be counted and take back the rights of women and children?????

DH mentioned that there will always be women poor enough to agree to do this and I countered that you cannot sell a kidney (legally) or buy one so why should you be able to buy or sell a baby???????

BTW, DH agrees with me, but why do I feel I am the only person alive who is angry about this?

And I live in Wokesville (AKA Ireland) and I am worried that we are so keen to be woke and the most liberal place to be gay in the world, that we will soon legalise surrogacy or at least make it easy for people to legally buy a baby overseas and then take it home here. That is what the person was arguing for on his gushing post.

Garden man I wanted to show you this

www.bailii.org/ew/cases/EWFC/HCJ/2016/34.html

This is a UK case where the intended parents operated outside of the law and exploited the mother who was not only poor but didn't have English as her first language and she was asked to sign a US template contract at a motorway service station.

I encourage you to read the details, specifically what happened to the baby.

There may be warm and fuzzy stories like Surro's up thread but there are also stories like this and like Barbara said the laws of the land are to protect women like this, not the ones who have comfortable lives who are doing it for their friends or family.

Agreed. OhHoly. BarbaraStrozzi made a post a few pages back which pretty much explains things for me. We don't make laws to punish people doing nice things for each other we make laws to protect people who are at risk of exploitation. Who might not have a choice.

We really have to think about unintended consequence and examples outside our own experience. Critical thinking not just "well she seems alright stop being so mean"

@ALittleBitofVitriol & @OhHolyJesus

Yes I will be active in the babies life & my girls will see the baby/child as often as I do. I am friends with the “boys” for life. I will be Aunty Nicola & yes we were friends before the thought of surrogacy even entered out thoughts. I’m currently 28 weeks & yes meds were taken pre transfer (to regulate my cycle) and post transfer x

Agreed KettlePolly and OhHolyJesus

If you have that much of a problem with it, then YOU stump up $120k to help these poor women put their kids through college

Ah yes, because the only reasonable solution to people being too poor to educate their children to tertiary level is to buy and sell women’s bodies, as any fule kno

If you have that much of a problem with it, then YOU stump up $120k to help these poor women put their kids through college

What has the cost of US higher education got to do with surrogacy regulatory frameworks in the UK?

That's it Bernard spot on.

Surro do you know anything about the egg donor? I'm assuming she anonymously ( and generously and selflessly) gave her eggs. Do you get any info about her age, medical background, do your friends know anything and did they share any info with you?

Do the anti-rejection drugs have any side effects?

You mentioned that your friends wanted to be biologically related to their child and this part of this bothers me, in the particularly when adoption provides loving homes for children who already exist, to people who want to be parents but their biology failed them. Have your friends ever discussed adoption with you?

GardenMan1

Welcome to Mumsnet to post multiple times on this thread. I’m really glad that your woman-hatred is so clearly expressed in your posts. Great that you are sticking around to reply each time someone disagrees with your views, or those baseless insults that you are making on here or the shutdowns you are trying to make happen on this thread.

Makes it easier for everyone to see the context for this issue and then to make their minds up for themselves what they think. Have a great day.

good grief OhHolyJesus, that judgement

The commissioning parents were a gay couple
The surrogate was a young woman with significant congenital learning difficulties that rendered her extremely vulnerable to manipulation
The implantation took place at a clinic in Cyprus
The mother had not wanted a multiple pregnancy, but was implanted with 2 embryos regardless, and assured that 'they probably wouldn't both work'
The frozen embryos were not of the highest "grade" and their viability was, therefore, questionable
One of the embryos did indeed miscarry
The little boy who was born has some kind of health issues and a possible developmental delay
The complete lack of knowledge about the woman whose egg was used to make him is hampering his treatment
Is it possible that being the result of a 'lower grade' embryo has led to this little boy's health issues?
The commissioning parents already have twins from another surrogate who they appear to have deliberately cut out of their children's lives

Just that judgement alone should be enough to make everyone understand that surrogacy is not OK

Yep you got Bernard

All in the UK in 2016 (the case, but events leading to that were before obviously).

The woman who connected the couple with the mother was also operating outside of the law. She should be prosecuted. So should the couple. All of them broke the law, the mother is a victim of the crime, arguably the baby boy is too.

The original surrogate who have the couple twins had an interesting story too.

It's all love and light until it's not right? That relationship soured and the couple obviously wanted to go the same illegal route to hire a second uterus for the job, a vulnerable woman, one they took the piss out of for being poor, one they lied to and didn't listen to. They already had twins, couldn't they be satisfied with that?

I shared it in the hope that others might read it and think about the child, mother and the family that have a child they love but a lifetime of more expense and difficulty raising this child. A child that would not have been born if it wasn't for that couple and the woman who made the introduction.

That picture!
its like a goldfish in a bag
that baby should have its rights prioritised

Or perhaps you are being obtuse?

I've noticed that seems to be the standard response to anyone who doesn't toe the agreed line on here, There's even a current thread by a poster about being intimidated from posting.. So much for all the claims this board supports free speech and different opinions.

I'm actually vehemently opposed to surrogacy- whether it's a man or a woman using it but heaven forfend I should step out of line. Do you (general) you have any idea how patronising and arrogant you sound trotting out this line about posters being stupid?

top tip DeusIbiEst, stop trying to police how others talk to each other when spending their evenings chatting on this chat site and all will be well

just say what you think - don't try to control how others say what they think

@OhHolyJesus

Yes we do! We know so much about the donor it’s actually amazing! Height, eye colour, her education prior to being a donor & what she is doing now in life etc.. the only thing we don’t have is a physical picture but we have an image in our head what she looks like & to be fair we all think she is awesome!

I personally didn’t have any side effects & if I’m truthful felt great throughout everything prior & post transfer. If anything a little tired but from experience I know that’s what pregnancy does to you.

Yes we did discuss adoption & that was one of the avenues they did explore. However after researching everything it was decided Surrogacy was the route they wanted to follow. In fact it was me that brought it up as a more firmer subject. Our whole families have been involved in this decision from the beginning & it’s something we are all involved in as a whole/team together. My daughters love the fact they get another “cousin” and what makes it even more special is that I’m actually carrying the baby! So they get to experience it all.
When I say we are a team, we really are. We were a team before surrogacy was even mentioned & we will be a team for many, many years to come.

As I have said previously I understand you all have your own views & I perfectly respect them. However I spied this thread & just wanted to put my own perspective across.
You yourself have had so many genuine questions & I think by me answering them it brings more understanding so you can respect my views also x

I respect your views of course Surro and I'm asking questions as you are perfectly placed to answer them. I'm afraid I have a lot of questions!

Are you able to expand upon the reasons your friends decided against adoption?

I read about surrogate pregnancies being more risky when the egg is from a donor.

What advice did the doctors give you and what were you told about the health risks? Did you take out life insurance to protect your family? What did you and your friends decide to do if the baby had any development issues in your womb? Do you plan to breastfeed? Will the baby stay with you for any period of time after birth? Do you have a contract in place with all of the above?

You mentioned your company supporting your decision to be a surrogate mother, what procedure did you go through there? I appreciate you need to stay anonymous so please share what you are able.

I'm pleased you feel well in your pregnancy. You are lucky.

There's even a current thread by a poster about being intimidated from posting.. So much for all the claims this board supports free speech and different opinions.

Why the self pity? Who exactly is 'intimidating' you or anyone else from posting?

My point was that there's a pretty obvious difference between discussions - which this is - and an attempt to get 'your average casual browser' who just so happens to come across the Feminism page, 'on board'. I suspect you are fully aware of this difference but are pretending not to be: hence, being obtuse.

@OhHolyJesus the reasoning behind adoption is because unfortunately for them where they were based at the time they didn’t acknowledge same sex marriages so while they did explore that option it was like hitting their heads against a brick wall & one of them wouldn’t of been recognised as having any link to the child & wouldn’t be on any paperwork as a parent in anyway.

Pregnancies through IVF as a general rule of thumb as classed as needing consultant lead care (even more so with me being classed as geriatric 😂🤦🏽‍♀️ I certainly don’t feel 35) so while yes this pregnancy is running smoothly & everything is perfectly ok (like with my previous pregnancies) I am classed as being high risk. Because my previous pregnancies went without a hitch I am currently under midwife lead care but the second anything changes I will be going straight to consultant lead care. Which while I don’t like being faffed about with (I hate fuss) I would openly welcome because the babies health matters as does mine.

Yes we have all those things you asked written down in an agreement. I plan to BF baby once born for the first day then will express. I will donate any excess milk if the Dads feel like they would prefer to use formula. I don’t want my milk going to waste & o know there are so many women out there who can’t produce their own milk so I would like to donate it to my local milk bank. Baby will leave the hospital when I leave & then go home with their Dads, which hopefully won’t be ages as I know we will all be keen to start the next step in our journey!
Also yes, my will has been updated & life insurance too ☺️

With my work place, I simply spoke to my manager. They knew about me previously wanting to donate my eggs & then changing my mind as we tend to operate a very open door policy. I am treated like any other pregnant member of staff, risk assessments done on time etc etc... there are 2 other people that do the same job as me so they’re have been made aware they for a short time they will be taking on some of my work. However I am in a slightly more senior role to them with that I do the same as them but a higher work load. So they are relishing in the opportunity to get more stuck in - especially one of them as she is due to move up to the same work load as myself x

Babies are not commodities, end of.

They should never be brought (or bought) into the world to be given away or sold. Its sickening.

Whilst I have every sympathy for any wanting dc that cant have them naturally, its a hard thing to do, to accept that. Accept it you must. Or adopt a child in need of a home.

Babies need their womb parent, vital first year and fourth trimester for healthy psychological and physical development.

What if the baby is severely disabled, the pretend parents dont have any responsibilities in law do they.

Any biological father can walk away now. Let alone a surrogacy situation.

This can destroy the DMs life.

Stop treating babies as commodities.

Its not a 'right' to have babies.

Thank you for posting that judgement, OhHoly, and for the summary Bernard

I very strongly recommend anyone who has time to read the whole judgement - Bernard quite correctly -given that one doesn't want to impose one's own judgement on the facts in the process of summarising - has stuck to the factual bare bones of the story, but the judge pulls no punches in showing the full horror of the situation.

It's an awful case, though thankfully the judge I think has found in favour of the best interests of the child. But it shows exactly why the law needs to remain as it is (short of a complete ban).

A former poster, Lass, made the point that if one were to go down the model of commercial surrogacy along US lines, it would be interesting to see the surrogate compensated properly (she wasn't advocating for this, btw, far from it; simply saying "you want this? You owe it to women to pay them properly). In the case above, the woman acting as surrogate was paid 12.5k (iirc) as "expenses" (which we all know is actually a payment, plus a promise of 1k in compensation should she need a hysterectomy as a result of the pregnancy (the bit in the judgement about the commissioning parents haggling over keeping this sum capped at 1k is particularly chilling).

Following Lass's suggestion, I coated up 9 months 24/7, with time and a half for overnight and weekends, at NMW. It's comfortably over 100k. Plus I would say that commissioning parents should also have to pay for private healthcare during pregnancy and birth (so the NHS doesn't have to subsidise them). Plus insurance cover of one million for downstream health needs after birth/life insurance should the surrogate die.

Not looking so attractive now, is it, would be baby purchasers? You want a commercial market place; I say cost it properly and realistically and price you out of the market. (Of course my actual position is that commercial surrogacy should remain illegal).

So in your case surro you are accessing for free even higher levels of maternity care, with referral to extremely high cost and high demand consultants and midwifery team seniors!

Wtaf!

@TruthOnTrial haha no! Sorry I should of been clearer with that part of my post - all my healthcare is private. That way if anything is needed etc then it can be done straight away.

Donating my milk however will be done to the local NHS milk bank x