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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Famous men and surrogacy

660 replies

Annasgirl · 04/10/2019 10:43

OK, so this is not to bash the specific person involved but last night I was heading to bed and a story came up on my phone - a person from Westlife was announcing the birth of their baby - through surrogacy (he is gay) and showed a pic of him, his boyfriend and the baby - there was no mother.

So, I totally lost it and poor DH had to listen to me rant for about an hour - but when, oh God, when, are we going to stand up and be counted and take back the rights of women and children?????

DH mentioned that there will always be women poor enough to agree to do this and I countered that you cannot sell a kidney (legally) or buy one so why should you be able to buy or sell a baby???????

BTW, DH agrees with me, but why do I feel I am the only person alive who is angry about this?

And I live in Wokesville (AKA Ireland) and I am worried that we are so keen to be woke and the most liberal place to be gay in the world, that we will soon legalise surrogacy or at least make it easy for people to legally buy a baby overseas and then take it home here. That is what the person was arguing for on his gushing post.

OP posts:
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Surrosmith13 · 07/10/2019 22:02

@FannyCann I know this, and yes I understand this. However when the PO is granted, legally I no longer will be.

BernardBlacksWineIceLolly · 07/10/2019 22:02

I also know a woman who has been a surrogate, altruistically for a friend

yes me too. she's a good person who makes good decisions and I have a great deal of respect for her. but I think in that decision she was seriously mistaken

RufusthebewiIderedreindeer · 07/10/2019 22:04

Love, guidance & nurturing makes a mother

Absolutely

But so does giving birth

Surrosmith13 · 07/10/2019 22:11

@IcedPurple It’s not hallmark stuff, it’s what I feel as a person makes a mother. And as I have said previously we all have our own views which without those boards & threads like this wouldn’t exist!

I’m really not living in some parallel universe, in which I have made this up so I can give up my own child. Giving up my own child is illegal, which I’m not doing. I’m just giving birth to my friends child because unfortunately they weren’t born with vaginas 🤷🏽‍♀️

IcedPurple · 07/10/2019 22:18

It’s not hallmark stuff, it’s what I feel as a person makes a mother.

It's not about 'feelings' though is it? Lots of people can show love and guidance towards a child. Only one person gestates and gives birth to a child, and that person is the mother.

To repeat, if you aren't that child's mother, you would not be entitled to maternity leave. However, you are, so you are.

I’m just giving birth to my friends child because unfortunately they weren’t born with vaginas

That's hardly 'unfortunate', is it? 50% of the world have vaginas, 50% don't. Only the former can be mothers.

Giving up my own child is illegal, which I’m not doing.

Really? So the birth cert won't name you as the child's mother? Who will it name?

ALittleBitofVitriol · 07/10/2019 22:20

Hi surro, thanks for sticking around in the conversation. We may vehemently disagree on this issue but I hope you have a healthy pregnancy. How many weeks are you?

Can I ask, were you friends with the intended parents before the context of surrogacy was introduced?

OhHolyJesus · 07/10/2019 22:29

You sound like you have a strong friendship with the men you are having a baby for Surro are you going to be involved in the child's life and do you intend for the child to be in your children's lives?

As the men had an egg from another woman did you have to take anti-rejection drugs as your body recognised the embryo as a foreign body?

Genuine questions.

GrapefruitsAreNotTheOnlyFruit · 07/10/2019 22:31

Does anyone else start to think that egg donation might not be a very good idea?

The more I think about surrogacy the less sure I feel about it.

To me being a mother is about three things, the genetic inheritance, the pregnancy and birth of the child, and bringing the child up.

There has always been the possibility because of death in childbirth or some other reason that a different woman would need to become a child's mother from the woman who gave birth to that child.

However the split between the genetic inheritance and the pregnancy and birth is new. I don't think we are prepared for it psychologically.

A lot of the discussion in the thread is about what make you a mother. The genetic inheritance or growing and birthing the child. I can't help feeling that the same person really ought to be doing both.

Also doesn't from a evolutionary point of view this mean that women can now become similar to men? Able to pass on their genetic inheritance at far less personal cost.

NotTonightJosepheen · 07/10/2019 22:31

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

IcedPurple · 07/10/2019 22:34

Also doesn't from a evolutionary point of view this mean that women can now become similar to men? Able to pass on their genetic inheritance at far less personal cost.

But gamete donation is still much more invasive and stressful for women than it is for men.

And it's still going to have to be a woman who carries and births the child.

GrapefruitsAreNotTheOnlyFruit · 07/10/2019 22:39

I feel that really a child born in this situation actually has two or even three mothers. The woman who gave birth, the woman who provided their genetic material and the woman (if there is one) who brings the child up.

But all the hormones and other things that bond a mother and child won't be there. I can't see how this could possibly be as good for the child as being brought up by their mother.

And political correctness aside does anyone actually think it's a great idea for children to be brought up by two men?

What about role models and the social and cultural idea of the mother that the child will have to live without no matter how brilliant their dads are?

OhHolyJesus · 07/10/2019 22:47

Speaking of who the mother is, egg donors and having two or three parents check this out.

www.newscientist.com/article/2107451-everything-you-wanted-to-know-about-3-parent-babies/

And the egg donor of Surro's baby or anyone else who has donated eggs could end up infertile, with breast cancer or a just really really ill. Jennifer Lahl will tell you. Gardenman if he ever comes back might be interested in reading her work.

GrapefruitsAreNotTheOnlyFruit · 07/10/2019 22:48

@icedpurple I kind of imagine a new future where there are three categories of human rather than two.

Men who are much as at present. The women who reproduce via eggs implanted in surrogates and are liberated from pregnancy and childbirth. The underclass women who do all the hard work for the other two groups but don't even have their own children at the end of it.

IcedPurple · 07/10/2019 22:50

The underclass women who do all the hard work for the other two groups but don't even have their own children at the end of it.

I'm trying to think of a name to describe such women. How about 'handmaids'?

GrapefruitsAreNotTheOnlyFruit · 07/10/2019 22:51

@OhHolyJesus well it does look like there is a sound medical reason for the procedure the article you linked to describes.

OhHolyJesus · 07/10/2019 22:52

Grape that sounds a bit like a sequel to The Testaments which I'm reading between posting - could you tell?

You should develop that plot line and sell it to Channel 4.

OhHolyJesus · 07/10/2019 22:57

Absolutely Grape but it's too soon to tell of the boy will remain healthy. Dolly the sheep was conceived this way and she died around 6 years old when sheep generally live until 12-15 years I think it is.

Taking out the bits that don't work and putting in bits that do sounds like a grand plan but for me it's a genetic modification too far.

nonsenceagain · 07/10/2019 23:48

The priority must be the child and there is no question, empirically speaking, that children removed from their birth mothers do less well than children who remain in their birth family. Anyone who knows about adoption knows this.

I feel for people who want to be parents and can't be for various reasons. It can be heartbreaking. However, this cannot be all about potential parents. It is first and foremost about the child. This is why the adoption process is often very long and intrusive. It's also why adoption is often very difficult for adoptive parents and children, irrespective of how early the child was removed or how much s/he is loved.

If someone can show me empirically that surrogacy is likely to produce happy and well rounded children I'd still be against it because of the implications of buying women's bodies. But the first question we should be asking is: what is best for children?

GardenMan1 · 08/10/2019 00:08

Your shut-down attempt to dismiss posters’ opinion doesn’t make sense to me, GardenMan.

It wasn't a shut-down attempt. Is yours? Perhaps try re-reading with an open mind.

It’s ludicrous (and we could equally say, ‘offensive’ to us, if you prefer to frame things in terms of ‘offence’ in how you weight the validity of arguments...hmm) to suggest that women on here have ‘righteous indignation that lacks any meaningful experience’.

As I said in my original comment, the posts I was referring to were all full of claims of 'exploitation' and 'buying and renting wombs' ... that was the righteous indignation I called out, and I stand by it. And by 'meaningful experience', (again in reference to 'exploitation etc) as my post made clear, I was referring to the opinions and experiences of people who are living the surrogacy experience, as opposed to opinionated others in ivory towers.

Lacks meaningful experience? Are you kidding? Why do you think it’s OK to push aside the opinions of very many of the women posting about this issue, many of whom are mothers, often several times over? We have been pregnant, birthed children or are bringing up children right now, doing so in families of all shapes and sizes. How is that not deeply relevant meaningful experience? We know at first hand the intense emotional and physical needs of newborn and small babies for us, their mothers.

I refer to my above response to this, and would add that of course everyone here is qualified to judge other mother's (and parents generally) because of how perfect they clearly are at the role. No other parents (including fathers) could be even come close!

We know how all-consuming new motherhood is and how deeply unprepared for a legal battle with anyone, most of us would be in the early weeks after a birth.

Legal battle? Why such sensationalist language?

We know what birth injuries are like. Some of us know what going through IVF is like. We know how hard the expectations of those around us can be to handle when TTC, in pregnancy, in labour and the early weeks after the birth.

Your talk of how experienced and amazing you are at motherhood is admirable, and I'm guessing that it's aimed at demonstrating how meaningful you find the role of mother and indeed are. But again, my point was about claims of 'exploitation' etc regarding surrogacy.
It's a bold claim to feel that you can speak against another's life choices, basing that on the mere fact that you've given birth, when parenthood is about so much more.... furthermore, you haven't walked in the actual shoes of the other that you criticise. You refer to many relevant aspects of parenthood (although you limit it to motherhood) while there are many more crucial aspects besides that. What gives you or anyone else the right to say what's 'best' for anyone else? My position is that it's down to the individuals involved, and my considerable experience with surrogacy here in the UK has demonstrated that it can be a beautiful thing.

It’s practically a running joke on here how many of us have thought one thing before the baby arrived and then thought something completely different once the baby arrived.

We get asked searching questions by our kids about themselves to help them make sense of their world and their family, the genetic, biological, or family or friends relationships that are meaningful for them.

Again, valid points, which of course are equally valid for surrogate families. Right?

We know the search for identity that our teens and young adult children go through. Many of us have adopted our kids, or are adoptees ourselves, and we also have meaningful experiences related to that, which inform our views on surrogacy. I could go on and on.

It's as if you're positing a hierarchy of parenthood, with yourself(ves) at the very top, throwing judgement from a place of entitled and self-bestowed superiority on those whose wish and struggle for children is different from yours. Can you hear yourself?

That is all highly relevant information and experience and that is what leads many of us to form opinions on this issue. So I’m not really fussed if you feel that people talking about their most fundamental life experiences ‘simply comes across as prejudice and discrimination against people whose lifestyles we don't understand.’

Funny because your comment would suggest that you seem fussed.

The fact you hadn't even considered as ‘meaningful’ or relevant, mothers’ perspectives, shows that this is a set of issues where maybe your own understanding of pregnancy and birth or child-rearing is maybe a bit lacking or maybe your ‘discrimination’ in what views you value is a bit evident?
(I’m not sure about describing having or bringing up kids as a ‘lifestyle’ by the way)

The irony is that it is a mother's perspective that I came here to share and defend: A surrogate mother's perspective

I consider parenthood to be a lifestyle, given how it fundamentally changes us and our lives when it comes along. What would you call bringing up children? (kids are baby goats if you want to be pedantic about language).

For the record I have met parents who have had their babies through surrogacy and they have been really lovely people. I’m not sure why that’s relevant though.

It's relevant because that is exactly the point I was trying to make. Surrogacy here in the UK (as you've seen for yourself) is not about exploitation.

My concerns around this issue primarily come from having been pregnant myself and the reality of looking after newborns but I recognise that there are a lot of different relevant perspectives. Most people would say that it’s better to try and listen to each other and to work out what’s in the best interests of children, rather than try to shut down informed discussions about that because some adults might be offended.

You seem offended in that you've made a concerted effort to shut me down. ironic isn't it.

horoscopodiario · 08/10/2019 03:08

This reply has been deleted

Message deleted by MNHQ. Here's a link to our Talk Guidelines.

MeganTheVegan · 08/10/2019 03:12

We looked into surrogacy in the US. The cost is a life-changing amount of money for the surrogate. Most of the surrogates we looked at were poorer women (not extremely poor) who wanted the money to put their kids through college.

I do wonder how we’ve got the right to tell them they shouldn’t do that. If you have that much of a problem with it, then YOU stump up $120k to help these poor women put their kids through college.

MeganTheVegan · 08/10/2019 03:16

This is why the adoption process is often very long and intrusive.

Only really in the UK is this the case. It is often said that Social Services hate adoption and would rather kids festered in ‘care’ homes than go to loving families.

All of my friends who adopted did so from overseas (India, Nepal, Ethiopia and Mexico).

FannyCann · 08/10/2019 06:46

Surrogacy here in the UK (as you've seen for yourself) is not about exploitation.

You are right. Here in the UK at present surrogacy is limited to fairly small numbers and is quite tightly regulated. Things do go wrong but for the most part it seems to be fairly trouble free even if many of us disagree with it in principle, as I do.

The problem is we have proposals for new laws which seek to open up the market. Literally. Lifting the ban on advertising and allowing paid match making agencies. Changing the rights of the surrogate mother to favour the rights of the commissioning parents. Smoothing the way for international surrogacy tourism, making it easier to bring babies home from abroad. This despite copious evidence of abuses that occur in surrogacy hotspots overseas which have prompted countries In Asia such as India, Thailand and Cambodia to clamp down on the practice to protect their populace.

So it is only right that we should debate these proposals and object to them if we disagree with them.

Which reminds me - Nordic model Now have produced a brilliant letter to complain about the consultation. One signature is all it takes so it couldn't be quicker to add your voice.

"We've created an open letter to the Law Commissioners with an online sign-up form. People can sign regardless whether they have/are planning to respond to the consultation. This is very urgent. We will keep the form open until Friday morningng_ - which is the deadline.*"

docs.google.com/forms/d/e/1FAIpQLSdp16TCOzpaHnPuMdxs2pvkaM6g7NPuP3mguJrvBY5ds57VuQ/viewform

FannyCann · 08/10/2019 06:48

I will copy in the text of the letter here but obviously you need to open the link to add a signature at the end.

Open letter to the UK Law Commissioners – Call for Signatures
PLEASE SCROLL DOWN TO THE BOTTOM TO ADD YOUR SIGNATURE

UK and Scottish Law Commissioners

October 2019

Dear Law Commissioners

We are writing to express our concern about your joint consultation on proposals to open up commercial-style surrogacy in the UK. We believe both the proposals and the consultation are so flawed that they should be scrapped and restarted centring women’s and children’s human rights.

  1. The consultation does not conform to accepted methodology or even the government’s own consultation guidelines

The consultation paper runs to 502 dense and technical pages and has 118 questions, most requiring open-ended answers about detailed technicalities, and many with multiple parts.

There are no simple and straightforward questions about the broad issues – such as whether you think paid surrogacy can ever be ethical, particularly while women’s poverty and inequality between the sexes are hurtling backwards.

Similarly there are no questions about whether you agree with the high-level proposals, such as the ‘new pathway’ as a whole. This is dishonest because in isolation many of the details appear sound. For example, who could object to pre-conception medical checks on all the participants? Our concern is that any agreement to the details may be taken as agreement with the ‘new pathway’ as a whole. This is a major concern given there are no high-level questions and means that the results of the consultation are likely to misrepresent many people’s actual views.

  1. Does not comply with the public sector equality duty (PSED)

Our understanding is that the law commissioners are obliged to comply with the PSED when carrying out public functions (such as drafting proposals for new legislation and policy and conducting a consultation on those proposals) but there is no evidence this has been done. As surrogacy has a very different impact on women and children than on adult males, we believe the law commissioners are in breach of equality legislation.

  1. Uses spurious and discredited ‘human rights’ justifications

The consultation paper uses the spurious and discredited ‘procreative liberty’ argument to justify a ‘human right’ to a child through surrogacy, while more or less ignoring the internationally accepted human rights of women and children to not be instrumentalised and commodified, and that third parties should not profit from that.

Similarly the consultation paper suggests that a woman’s right to choose what to do with her own body justifies a ‘human right’ to enter into a paid surrogacy arrangement as a birth mother. This is the same argument that promoters of the sex industry use to justify prostitution and it is clearly absurd. It is always the most marginalised women with the fewest options who end up in prostitution and being used as birth mothers in surrogacy arrangements.

  1. Does not conform to binding legal obligations under human rights treaties

The consultation paper admits that it is unlikely that commercial surrogacy could ever conform to CEDAW and then proceeds to ignore this. Similarly it mentions obligations under the UNCRC and its first optional protocol and the recommendations of the UN Special Rapporteur on the sale and sexual exploitation of children, but then appears to engage smoke and mirrors to pretend the proposals do not conflict with these obligations when clearly they do.

Moreover the consultation paper (e.g. on page 85) suggests that obligations under ratified human rights conventions are not legally binding. However, our understanding is that ratification of a human rights convention does place a legally binding obligation on the state to implement its terms. This is of particular relevance when drawing up proposals for new legislation.

It seems to us that there is no possible justification for consulting on proposals that are in direct violation of the human rights conventions that the UK has ratified and yet this appears to be what the law commissioners have done.

  1. No consideration of the medical risks

Surrogacy is a branch of reproductive medicine and any new laws should be informed by the medical processes and risks to the health, safety and wellbeing of the women who are the key participants in the process and the children who result. There is no evidence, however, that the law commissioners consulted with medical experts, such as midwives, specialists in obstetrics and gynaecology, and child health, before drawing up their detailed proposals.

Apparently at one of the official consultation events, one of the law commissioners threw up his hands and said “we are not doctors, we are lawyers” and explained they hadn’t concerned themselves with medical matters. How can this be justified when the risks are profound and include death?

One of the arguments for banning payment of organ harvesting is that it puts health professionals in the invidious position where any pretence at dispassionate care is compromised by the direct conflict of interests of the ‘donor’ and the receiver of the organ. This argument applies equally to egg donation and surrogacy and yet it is not considered at all.

  1. No consideration of the linked and dangerous practice of egg harvesting

Modern surrogacy is predicated on a supply of eggs harvested from healthy young women. This is a dangerous process that carries serious health risks, including premature death, and there are major ethical issues involved – and yet the consultation maintains complete silence on this. Nor is there any mention that pregnancies using a different woman’s eggs carry significant additional medical risks – even though this is now the norm in surrogacy arrangements.

  1. No consideration of the psychological risks to the birth mother and baby

There is little long-term research on the outcomes of surrogacy to birth mothers and babies, because it is only relatively recently that it has been practiced on a large scale. However, there is extensive research on the outcomes of adoption, which has close parallels.

Studies of women who gave up babies for adoption find that they tend to suffer chronic grief for the rest of their lives and have heightened susceptibility to psychological problems, up to and including suicide. Studies of adopted children have found that they are susceptible to similar difficulties – even when their adoptive parents were loving and their basic needs were well met. Many experts now consider these risks to be related to the separation of the mother and infant at or shortly after birth.

These risks were not considered or even mentioned, and nor were the consequences for society as a whole and the financial costs to the NHS and other public services that will inevitably be left to pick up the pieces.

  1. No measures to prevent and criminalise coercing women into participation

It is well-known that women and girls are groomed and coerced into prostitution by partners who act as their pimp and take all or much of their earnings. The same dynamics inevitably occur in relation to surrogacy when it is paid.

Pimping is a criminal offence – which, even though it is poorly enforced, sends out a clear message that it is wrong. But the consultation paper does not recognise that if implemented, the proposals will inevitably be accompanied by attempts to coerce young women into acting as a ‘surrogate’ mother for someone else’s financial and material benefit and there is no provision for measures to address this.

How can this be justified, when there are reports in the press almost daily about unscrupulous people exploiting marginalised women’s eggs and babies for profit?

  1. No serious consideration of the coercive forces of payments in the current environment of extreme inequality

The law commissioners propose removing all restrictions on advertising surrogacy in the UK. Young women are already being targeted with adverts for ‘donating’ their eggs and if these proposals are implemented, Facebook and Google will inevitably also present ads to young women suggesting that surrogacy can be a solution to their financial difficulties. How can this be ethical at this time of worsening inequality?

A recent Guardian article reported that student accommodation now costs on average 73% of the funding students can receive through loans and grants. As a result the majority of students need to find additional sources of income while studying. This impacts young women more seriously than young men because they have fewer opportunities for decently paid casual work. These economic inequalities, and the way girls are socialised to put other people’s needs ahead of their own, make women particularly vulnerable to being enticed into surrogacy arrangements when it’s not in their best interests.

If the proposals (including a minimum age of 18 and no requirement for having already had a child) go ahead, there is a very real risk that very young women will become ‘surrogate’ mothers under the coercion of poverty and that this will have a hugely detrimental impact on their life chances and happiness.

The consultation paper includes no consideration of this. Instead it seems the primary concern is to facilitate and ease the acquisition of a baby by the commissioning ‘parents’ in clear breach of obligations under the PSED.

  1. No consideration of the inherent inequality of the surrogacy relationship

Under the proposals for a ‘new pathway,’ legal parenthood will be conferred automatically on the commissioning ‘parents’ at the moment of birth with the birth mother having only a five week window (shorter in Scotland) from the moment of birth to register her objections. If she objects, the decision will be made by the courts, with the criteria favouring the commissioning ‘parents.’

This will have a chilling effect on the legal recognition of the unique nature of the mother-child bond, with potentially serious implications for all women and children down the line. Yet there does not appear to have been consideration of any of this, nor of the gross inequality of the situation, should the birth mother find she simply cannot give the baby up. She will have just gone through the upheaval of pregnancy and giving birth and is likely to be poor and with little legal or social support – while the commissioning ‘parents’ will have lawyers and agencies behind them who will have many financial and commercial reasons for wanting the arrangement to be legally sealed. At no point does the consultation paper consider the plight of that young woman and her human rights, nor of the child’s human right to his or her birth mother and the well documented consequences of disrupting the continuity of care in the first three years of life.

  1. No recognition that there are other options than surrogacy

We recognise the anguish of hankering for a child of ones own that cannot be. However, we do not believe that surrogacy is a reasonable solution to this anguish. It simply transfers the anguish onto others – usually a woman, who is marginalised in one way or another, and the child who is born of the arrangement.

There is no absolute human right to have all our wishes and dreams fulfilled, and disappointment and frustration are inevitable parts of human life.

We believe that there are many other ways of looking at the problem of childlessness and that at this time of imminent environmental catastrophe and deepening inequality and poverty, it is profoundly irresponsible to not do so.

  1. Does not comply with the law commissioners’ own code of practice

The UK law commissioners’ code of practice states that responsibilities include “ensuring that the Commission properly takes account of the diverse needs of all those affected by its proposals.” It should be stunningly obvious from the above that they have abjectly failed to do this in this project.

The consultation page on the Law Commission website states that the surrogacy project falls into the “Property, family and trust law” area of law and that the commissioner in charge is Professor Nicholas Hopkins, whose chief area of interest and expertise is “law as it applies to land.”

As women, the terrible irony is not lost on us that this project that is designed to make it easier for men in particular to gain access to children (as if they are private property) by instrumentalising women as wombs (as if they are public property), is being run by a man who has no known expertise in children’s welfare or women’s rights but who is instead an expert in the law of property.

  1. Finally

We hope that the law commissioners and all involved have the integrity to acknowledge that putting forward these proposals without considering all the implications for women and children is unconscionable.

It seems to us that the law commissioners were captured by a well organised lobby of people with vested interests in opening up commercial-style surrogacy here in the UK. We know that they can be very persuasive and persistent because some of them have trolled our social media accounts. However, they must be seen for what they are – a lobby of individuals with a lot to gain personally by the opening up of commercial-style surrogacy and who are blind to the needs of others and the best interests of society as a whole.

Legislation and policy must always put the needs of the most vulnerable first and clearly the law commissioners have failed to do this.

We urge the law commissioners to return to the drawing board and start afresh under the leadership of a female expert in women’s and children’s human rights and a healthy degree of scepticism for the voices of those who stand to benefit commercially and materially.

When viewed dispassionately, we believe there is no possible conclusion except that a total ban on surrogacy is the only approach that conforms to human rights obligations.

Yours sincerely

List of names here

Cc Lord Chancellor, Shadow Lord Chancellor, Members of the APPG on Surrogacy

FannyCann · 08/10/2019 06:49

I think the list of names won't show until they close it to send on Friday. Or maybe I'm doing something wrong.

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