Famous men and surrogacy

[Annasgirl]

OK, so this is not to bash the specific person involved but last night I was heading to bed and a story came up on my phone - a person from Westlife was announcing the birth of their baby - through surrogacy (he is gay) and showed a pic of him, his boyfriend and the baby - there was no mother.

So, I totally lost it and poor DH had to listen to me rant for about an hour - but when, oh God, when, are we going to stand up and be counted and take back the rights of women and children?????

DH mentioned that there will always be women poor enough to agree to do this and I countered that you cannot sell a kidney (legally) or buy one so why should you be able to buy or sell a baby???????

BTW, DH agrees with me, but why do I feel I am the only person alive who is angry about this?

And I live in Wokesville (AKA Ireland) and I am worried that we are so keen to be woke and the most liberal place to be gay in the world, that we will soon legalise surrogacy or at least make it easy for people to legally buy a baby overseas and then take it home here. That is what the person was arguing for on his gushing post.

I have no biological link to the baby, not at all

your body is currently keeping your baby alive

regardless of the egg that was used, you and your baby will share genetic material

As for me saying I’m just the oven - I am? I’m not the mother.

Again I say: Every single human that has ever lived has had a mother. If you insist you are not this child's mother - despite gestating and birthing it - then who is? Because some has to be.

I have no biological link to the baby, not at all

Oh, I understood that you were carrying the baby in your body and will later expel it from your body. I understood that your bloodstream and oxygen supply were entwined with that of the baby and that you are creating almost every cell of that baby from your own body. All of which are undeniably biological processes.

Are you now saying that you are not doing any of that? You're no more than a Bosch or a Zanussi fan assisted?

’Perhaps even more importantly, I'm curious to know if those of you who have voiced such anti-Surrogacy views, have ever actually met a surrogate, or met parents whose child has been born through surrogacy, or indeed an actual person who was born through surrogacy?
Of course, each of us is entitled to our opinions on any matter. However, righteous indignation that lacks any meaningful experience of an issue, simply comes across as prejudice and discrimination against people whose lifestyles we don't understand. Thus, such opinion is ignorant and offensive.’

Your shut-down attempt to dismiss posters’ opinion doesn’t make sense to me, GardenMan.

It’s ludicrous (and we could equally say, ‘offensive’ to us, if you prefer to frame things in terms of ‘offence’ in how you weight the validity of arguments...) to suggest that women on here have ‘righteous indignation that lacks any meaningful experience’.

Lacks meaningful experience? Are you kidding? Why do you think it’s OK to push aside the opinions of very many of the women posting about this issue, many of whom are mothers, often several times over? We have been pregnant, birthed children or are bringing up children right now, doing so in families of all shapes and sizes. How is that not deeply relevant meaningful experience? We know at first hand the intense emotional and physical needs of newborn and small babies for us, their mothers.

We know how all-consuming new motherhood is and how deeply unprepared for a legal battle with anyone, most of us would be in the early weeks after a birth.

We know what birth injuries are like. Some of us know what going through IVF is like. We know how hard the expectations of those around us can be to handle when TTC, in pregnancy, in labour and the early weeks after the birth.

It’s practically a running joke on here how many of us have thought one thing before the baby arrived and then thought something completely different once the baby arrived.

We get asked searching questions by our kids about themselves to help them make sense of their world and their family, the genetic, biological, or family or friends relationships that are meaningful for them.

We know the search for identity that our teens and young adult children go through. Many of us have adopted our kids, or are adoptees ourselves, and we also have meaningful experiences related to that, which inform our views on surrogacy. I could go on and on.

That is all highly relevant information and experience and that is what leads many of us to form opinions on this issue. So I’m not really fussed if you feel that people talking about their most fundamental life experiences ‘simply comes across as prejudice and discrimination against people whose lifestyles we don't understand.’

The fact you hadn't even considered as ‘meaningful’ or relevant, mothers’ perspectives, shows that this is a set of issues where maybe your own understanding of pregnancy and birth or child-rearing is maybe a bit lacking or maybe your ‘discrimination’ in what views you value is a bit evident?
(I’m not sure about describing having or bringing up kids as a ‘lifestyle’ by the way)

For the record I have met parents who have had their babies through surrogacy and they have been really lovely people. I’m not sure why that’s relevant though.

My concerns around this issue primarily come from having been pregnant myself and the reality of looking after newborns but I recognise that there are a lot of different relevant perspectives. Most people would say that it’s better to try and listen to each other and to work out what’s in the best interests of children, rather than try to shut down informed discussions about that because some adults might be offended.

It’s not my child? If it were mine then my egg would of been used. It wasn’t 🤷🏽‍♀️

It’s not my child? If it were mine then my egg would of been used. It wasn't

Right. So according to you if a woman becomes pregnant via IVF using donor eggs, then that is not her child.

OK.

This also made me sad. Hopefully it was a misjudged photo for the fans and behind the scenes there is a lot more going on to help with the transition. 4th trimester is a thing. I expect their daughter will be well loved and cared for but it is a rather painful picture.

@Surrosmith13 - if a heterosexual (or lesbian) couple use a donor egg to conceive, is the woman who gives birth the mother? Or does she have 'no biological link' to the baby?

Do you think then that the woman who donated the egg is the biological mother? If that's the case, are you and the men you are giving your baby either in touch with her or able to put your baby in touch with her when they turn 18?

@IcedPurple You know what, it would be so much more interesting if I were Bosch or Zanussi fan assisted wouldn’t it?!

Joking aside, I completely understand that we all have a point of view & I simply came on here to answer some points that were posted on this thread.

I’m not “poor” or in “financial difficulties” I have quite a well paid job which I have held for quite a few years. I have a string of qualifications to my name I have amassed over the years.

I first, 6 years ago wanted to donate my eggs. However the law changed around this time & if my eggs were successfully used a child born from my donation would be able to contact me years down the line. I didn’t want this, I have my beautiful daughters with my husband & I have no desire to add to my brood.

I concentrated on my career & stumbled across surrogacy. I researched the ins & outs. Checking ways in which it could go wrong before I sat down with my husband & extended family to discuss it all.

When I met my IP’s it was not with the intention to be a surrogate for them, our surrogacy journey was born out of love & friendship. They are both fantastic men, with respectable jobs. Who have the undeniable desire to be fathers & have a family of their own. Not through adoption, they wanted a biological link to their child. The egg that has been used is a donor egg, biologically that is the mother. And yes granted in the eyes of the law till the parental order is granted I will be classed as the birth mother. HOWEVER, this by no means makes me the babies mother. Yes there will be elements, traces of you wish of me whirling round in the baby however again this does not make me their mother.

I am simply a woman (grown at that) who has chosen to do something truly wonderful for her equally wonderful friends.

And to answer the question someone asked about maternity leave etc... I will be leaving work at 38 weeks. After baby is born providing there are no complications I will return to work 2 weeks afterwards. All my previous labours have been trouble free so I see no reason as to why I would need to take any further time from work. My work is mainly office based so there will be no over exertion on my behalf. Thankfully my place of work also believes I am doing a wonderful thing & they have said I can extend the time off I take if feel the need to.

I’m not here to argue, simply add a different point of view for you all to consider.

The egg that has been used is a donor egg, biologically that is the mother.

Right: So again, you would happily tell a woman pregnant via donor eggs that she was not the biological mother of the child she gestates, gives birth to, and raises?

Can I ask you how you would describe such a woman, since clearly you don't consider her to be the mother?

I found this old thread about Mermaids transgender "power couple" campaigning to change UK surrogacy laws.

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/a3496126-Mermaids-power-couple-Hannah-Jake-Graf-say-surrogacy-laws-must-be-changed-to-

"A transgender couple have shared their concerns about the surrogacy process in the UK.

Hannah, a British army officer who has served in Afghanistan, was born male and transitioned five years ago. Jake, an actor who recently featured in Keira Knightley’s new film ‘Colette’, transitioned from female to male a decade ago.

Speaking on ITV’s ‘Lorraine’ today, Hannah and Jake Graf announced they are ready to have children. The pair, who married in March 2018, have been together for three years.

“We are really, really eager to become parents,” Jake said.

However, the pair’s concerned the UK’s surrogacy laws might make the process more difficult, because surrogates are not legally-bound to give away their baby when born. They are the child’s legal parent at birth. Instead, according to Gov.uk, legal parenthood can be transferred by parental order or adoption after the child is born.

“The law is set up so you can’t put anything into stone prior to the baby being born, so there’s a worry from both sides,” Hannah added. “Intended parents like Jake and I are worried that a potential surrogate could get attached to the baby and not want to give it over. "

“Obviously, a huge scare for us. But it’s the same for the surrogate because they don’t want to be left with the child and all the legal responsibility.”

On the process, Jake added: “[It’s] terrifying. All our friends are trying and we can’t try. So we are in this sort of weird space of hoping that some kind stranger, who will hopefully become a friend, will come to us and say ‘I would like to work with you and I would like to help you’.
It is the ultimate gift, I can’t imagine anything more selfless than wanting to give someone the joy of a child, which is something I’ve wanted for so many years.”

So, they are both transgender and can't have children because of medication or surgery, or don't want to because they're trans. Whether they can use their own genetic material I don't know... And they're worried the surrogate mother might get attached to the baby and not want to hand the baby over.

from the trans woman Hannah:

"Hannah added. “Intended parents like Jake and I are worried that a potential surrogate could get attached to the baby and not want to give it over."

Imagine wanting to change the law to forcibly take the baby away in that scenario...Horrific.

My response in that thread: "Only selfish narcissists who have no thought nor care for women would want this"

They claim the surrogate would also be worried they'd be left with the baby and want law change. Really?

I suppose the explosion in numbers of transgender people, specifically kids and young people medically transitioning , leading to infertility, and trans men not wanting to carry their child because of dysphoria, will lead to the greater demand for women to be surrogates. Oh dear. This couple represent Mermaids, has this been a campaign issue for Mermaids and other such groups then?

It’s not my child

thank god, the law begs to differ

the baby's mother, repeatedly denying that she is their mother

AliasGrape

• and trans women, wanting to be mothers.

And to answer the question someone asked about maternity leave etc... I will be leaving work at 38 weeks

I don't understand why you are eligible for maternity leave though. What with you not being the mother and all.

On the process, Jake added: “[It’s] terrifying. All our friends are trying and we can’t try. So we are in this sort of weird space of hoping that some kind stranger, who will hopefully become a friend, will come to us and say ‘I would like to work with you and I would like to help you’.
It is the ultimate gift, I can’t imagine anything more selfless than wanting to give someone the joy of a child, which is something I’ve wanted for so many years.”*

It's all about them isn't it?

Women and babies exist - or can be brought into existence - purely and solely to pander to their selfish desires. Twats.

@icedpurple because I am carrying a child, which I will birth.

@icedpurple because I am carrying a child, which I will birth.

In other words, you are that child's mother.

That is how your newborn baby will see it.

That is how the law sees it.

That is why you're entitled to maternity leave. The clue's in the name. Last time I checked, Zanussi fan assisteds weren't eligible.

Also, you haven't told me how you would describe a woman who becomes pregnant via doner egg with the intention of keeping the baby.

Would you be prepared to tell that woman to her face that she is not that baby's mother? Because going by your logic, you would have to.

That is how your newborn baby will see it

god, I find that heart breaking

I'm curious to know if those of you who have voiced such anti-Surrogacy views, have ever actually met a surrogate, or met parents whose child has been born through surrogacy, or indeed an actual person who was born through surrogacy?

Yes I know a lovely couple whose much longed for child was born through surrogacy, from what I understand there is an ongoing relationship with the birth mother. I also know a woman who has been a surrogate, altruistically for a friend, and describes it as a very positive experience. I’m glad for their happiness but it does not change my views which are informed by my own experience as an adopted child, my work with children experiencing difficulties with attachment, and my fears for the potential for exploitation.

As others have pointed out, like it or not Surro you are/will be the legal mother. You have to register the birth and your name will be on the birth certificate.

Quite simply in response to your point about me being the mother @BernardBlacksWineIceLolly & @IcedPurple blood, genes, biology does make a mother or father to that point.
Love, being there, raising a child makes a parent. So yes every woman who has given birth to a child through donor eggs, when they love & raise that child - that makes them a mother. A woman who has adopted a baby from birth, a child from a young age etc... they are a mother too. They raise that child/baby. Just because you birth a baby, it does not automatically make you their mother (in my case)

Love, guidance & nurturing makes a mother.

@NotTonightJosepheen no sorry, I’ve been busy. With work, cooking dinner & my children. Sorry I couldn’t get back to you sooner. Life simply got in the way.

Love, guidance & nurturing makes a mother.

No it doesn't. That's Hallmark card talk. Look up the definition of 'mother'.

Just because you birth a baby, it does not automatically make you their mother (in my case)

Actually, it does. You may later give up your legal rights as mother if you so choose, but the woman who gives birth to a child is without doubt its mother.

You are living in a parallel reality you have created for yourself in order to justify giving up your own child.