Famous men and surrogacy

[Annasgirl]

OK, so this is not to bash the specific person involved but last night I was heading to bed and a story came up on my phone - a person from Westlife was announcing the birth of their baby - through surrogacy (he is gay) and showed a pic of him, his boyfriend and the baby - there was no mother.

So, I totally lost it and poor DH had to listen to me rant for about an hour - but when, oh God, when, are we going to stand up and be counted and take back the rights of women and children?????

DH mentioned that there will always be women poor enough to agree to do this and I countered that you cannot sell a kidney (legally) or buy one so why should you be able to buy or sell a baby???????

BTW, DH agrees with me, but why do I feel I am the only person alive who is angry about this?

And I live in Wokesville (AKA Ireland) and I am worried that we are so keen to be woke and the most liberal place to be gay in the world, that we will soon legalise surrogacy or at least make it easy for people to legally buy a baby overseas and then take it home here. That is what the person was arguing for on his gushing post.

Let me spell this out in simple terms: No man (straight or gay) has ever died because they weren't able to have a surrogate child

Let me spell this out in simple terms: No man or woman (straight or gay) has ever died because they weren't able to have a surrogate child.

Women have died being surrogates.

GardenMan does have a sort of a point that this thread is fixated on men. Lesbian and heterosexual women exploit surrogates too. Some of the women doing it are even women who have given birth to children naturally - Kim Kardashian and Sarah-Jessica Parker for example. They are every bit as bad.

Kim and Kanye are a famous couple exploiting women Deus but this thread is about famous men who have done it, hence the focus.

For balance I did include a link to Gardenman of you tube clip of a woman who was deeply affected by not knowing her father as she was conceived with a sperm donor.

Gardenman's original comment was that it was homophobic to be against surrogacy, and that was the context the comment above was made in.

I've also made the point on this thread that its also heterosexual couples who are doing this, but never a rich women who is the surrogate only the beneficary and that it was primarily something that was about rich people benefitting from and those without resources were at a disadvantage.

I can't see any justification for limiting this thread to men or famous men. If ever there was a justification for but women do it too the exploitation of surrogates by people is it.

To be honest it does come across as anti- male. I don't suppose this board cares of course.

I can't see any justification for limiting this thread to men or famous men. If ever there was a justification for but women do it too the exploitation of surrogates by people is it.

Go and read one of the other dozens of threads on surrogacy here then. This one is more specific than the overall subject - as OP titled it.

Why would you have a problem with that?

JFC. As this rich person push towards commercial baby buying ramps up, we're going to get shills on every thread, aren't we? Just like we do on sex work.

There was a segment on Ryan Tubridy a few weeks ago about surrogacy. I missed the beginning but it was a woman in her 50s who already had (I think) grownup kids who had twins by surrogacy in India. RT was gushing (of course), I was shouting at the radio! We're so keen to be woke here, it's painful!

I saw a documentary on this couple - at least I think it was them - a few years ago. They came across as nice enough, if a bit dim. But I kept thinking to myself that they needed counselling more than they needed a baby. They had between them 3 adult sons from previous marriages, so why the desperate need to spend their life's saving - they were not wealthy - to go to India and purchase a baby, or in this case 2 babies? In their 50s? It seemed very unhealthy to me, and that's not even getting into the ethics of paying a very poor woman to go through pregnancy - confined to basically house arrest for 9 months - and childbirth for their benefit.

It was really rather disturbing.

At what age does it become not acceptable to sell/gift a child?

JFC. As this rich person push towards commercial baby buying ramps up, we're going to get shills on every thread, aren't we? Just like we do on sex work.

Yup. From 'happy hooker' to 'happy surro'.

And we're the evil harpies for taking away their choice. Because every good feminist knows that the buying and selling of women and babies is a simple matter of choice, like deciding if you want a latte or a macchiato this morning.

Go and read one of the other dozens of threads on surrogacy here then. This one is more specific than the overall subject - as OP titled it.

The average, casual browser sees this thread. They aren't going to search for other threads. To an average, casual browser it looks anti- male and anti- gay men. That really helps your case.

To turn that view into shilling for "happy hooking" or supporting surrogacy is an impressive straw man.

Just pondering on the famous men do it part of this thread, I can't think of a single famous woman who has done it. Single as in, not in a relationship.

Charlie's Theron
Sandra Bullock
Angelina Jolie

...have all adopted (and Jolie has had her own babies, has breastfed a malnourished child in Angola and her adopted kids are from warm torn countries).

Guilana Rancic and her husband had a surrogate mother and I remember the woman's face when she was asked to do it again.

The only case I can think of, of a single person using surrogacy as a method to make a family is that Japanese man with the baby factory in Thailand. 13 kids with 24 hour nannies, will these kids ever know their mothers?

www.theguardian.com/world/2018/feb/20/japanese-man-custody-13-surrogate-children-thai-court

Not so much making a point as having a ponder...

I feel like I bang on about this a lot but my mother died in childbirth. I’m not that old. Death in childbirth is a real thing, a very real risk that happens today, here in the developed world even with modern medicine etc.

I was raised by extended family members, the woman who raised me was incredible I thought of her as my mum but also always knew the truth. I was supported and loved and couldn’t have wished for a better mum. I would have argued fiercely that my back story, whilst sad, didn’t have any lasting impact on me and that I loved the parents who raised me and would never have wanted it to be any different.

It took a lot of personal issues and pain, and a lot of therapy to begin to understand the impact that not having my birth mother, the woman whose voice, smell, heartbeat etc was all I knew, raise me. I did a lot of research into attachment and found a lot of it explained some things within my own life.

I wasn’t a tragic case or anything, I’ve grown up pretty well balanced and reasonably successful. I was very loved and I adored the mum who brought me up and feel lucky to have had her for a mum, as well as my adoptive siblings who I still have very close relationships to. But I really suffered, even without realising it, from the separation from my birth mother.

It was unavoidable in my case, my mother died, but even though I find it impossible to wish for a family other than the one I know and love, I still know that me being raised by someone other than my birth mother caused harm. Any child being raised by anyone other than their birth mother will cause harm - sometimes it’s the lesser of two evils and sometimes it’s unavoidable but I don’t think it should ever be brought about deliberately and certainly not in a commercial arrangement. I can’t imagine there not being a huge impact on the mother, but even if she somehow escapes consequences and thinks surrogacy the best and most life enhancing thing she’s ever done, there absolutely are consequences for the child.

I’m desperate to be a mother myself, fertility treatment hasn’t worked so far and our chances are pretty slim. I am not sure, despite being sort of adopted myself and working with many adopted children (or perhaps because of that), that I have what it takes to become an adoptive parent. I still couldn’t contemplate contracting a surrogate - as much as I can 100% understand the desire to.

It was just about men because there's a trend of men who are pushing to have the U.K. law changed.

And also men can't have children.

So gay men, like many couples, will have to adopt if the want children.

But as male entitlement seems to demonstrate, they don't want to do that. Lance Black and Tom Daley don't even know which of them is the biological father of their child. Well I'm sure they do now because it will probably be fairly obvious.

Where is consideration of the child in that?

The average, casual browser sees this thread. They aren't going to search for other threads. To an average, casual browser it looks anti- male and anti- gay men. That really helps your case.

Do 'average, casual browers' just happen upon the Feminism board?

And I think you misunderstand the nature of this, and all other, threads: it's a discussion about the topics raised by the OP. It's not about making a 'case' to appeal to 'your average, casual browser', whoever he or she is.

AliasGrape, thanks for sharing that. I am so sorry.

Just pondering on the famous men do it part of this thread, I can't think of a single famous woman who has done it. Single as in, not in a relationship.

Lucy Liu had a son by 'gestational carrier' (ugh) 4 years ago. I believe she is the genetic mother and I also think shewas single at the time he was born.

Oh AliasGrape

not a lot else to say to that lovely. I hope things work out for you

Surrosmith13

Assuming the posts’ genuine not a really excellent troll...

Why can’t you be involved as a third parent to the kid? Why the insistence that you’re just an incubator? I don’t see why this couldn’t be a totally ethical blended family situation rather than trying to claim your specific case means therefore that strangers should pay women to incubate their embryos

By the way, something that increasingly bothers me about reproductive technology is that like with fossil fuels / carbon, a cost is paid from the buyer to the seller, but no cost is ever paid to society.

We really do not need everyone who wants kids to have them. We need to better support those who are born naturally. Maybe it would be better to start disencentivizing reproductive technologies in general. At the very least, let’s be more honest about the true costs to the planet and society, as we are starting to do with carbon, eating meat, etc.

It's not about making a 'case' to appeal to 'your average, casual browser', whoever he or she is

I agree, I’m not up on all the facts about issues discussed on the FWR board but i read and learn

I’m a bit... well bored I suppose, of people popping on the board to tell the usually well read and well informed FWR regulars (not me...and it doesnt matter if you feel they are neither informed or read) to temper their attitude and language for people who may or may not exist

Just pondering on the famous men do it part of this thread, I can't think of a single famous woman who has done it. Single as in, not in a relationship

What has being single got to do with it? The men here are a couple.

You haven't heard of Lucy Liu, Sarah Jessica Parker, Kim Kardashian or Nicole Kidman? All used surrogates.

And I think you misunderstand the nature of this, and all other, threads: it's a discussion about the topics raised by the OP. It's not about making a 'case' to appeal to 'your average, casual browser', whoever he or she is

Great if you just want to pat yourselves on the back about how right you are. Not so great if you want to get others on board.

Well if you’re that bothered Deus, you do the recruitment

We’ll be over here having a chat

Are any of them seeking to get the U.K. law changed @DeusIbiEst? No.

Just to be crystal clear - I don't care what sex the parents who use surrogates are. I don't care what race their are. I don't care about their racial identity, education, where they live, what their sexual identity is.

Surrogacy is wrong.

@FannyCann

Thank you for this information. Yeh, I don't like the sound of that. I'll respond to the consultation tomorrow.

"One of the reasons there is so much discussion about this on Mumsnet is the law Commission Consultation on new surrogacy laws in the uk. Proposals which seek to remove the protections which the law currently provides.
A key tenet is drawing up contracts which will make the commissioning parents the legal parents at birth, sweeping away the current law which ensures the surrogate mother and her partner are the legal parents at birth.

This also reduces protections to the baby as a post birth application for transfer of parental rights involves closer scrutiny of the commissioning parents with the best interests of the child at the centre.

This directly contravenes recommendations from the United Nations which seek to protect women and babies.

There are just four days left to respond to the consultation. I urge you to do so. Surrogacy in the UK at present is well regulated and closely monitored but new laws will open up the commercial market. They recommend lifting the current ban on advertising for instance.

There is good explanation here as well as a draft reply you can download and send. (It is very time consuming and complex replying thoughtfully to all 118 questions).

nordicmodelnow.org/2019/08/30/how-to-respond-to-the-uk-surrogacy-consultation-in-10-easy-minutes/ "

Great if you just want to pat yourselves on the back about how right you are. Not so great if you want to get others on board.

To repeat: You seem to fundamentally misunderstand the nature of online discussions. They are just that, discussions. They are not there to get the 'average casual brower' who just so happens to land on the Feminist page of MN 'on board'.

Or perhaps you are being obtuse?

No @OhHolyJesus they have used a donor egg. I don’t want to be a TS (traditional surro)

I do work actually @NotTonightJosepheen 😂 full time - and have done since finishing my education. I am a 35 year old woman, I know exactly what I’m doing.
I call my IP’s “the boys” as a term of endearment. It’s something nice, you know how you have pet names for your friends? Which they both very much are.

As for me saying I’m just the oven - I am? I’m not the mother. I have no biological link to the baby, not at all 🤷🏽‍♀️